for thousands of years Religions said for example there is another "dimensions" in the universe. Now is science that is telling us that.
In a smaller scale the ocident did the same thing for a long period with acunpucture for example.

The rationality way of accepting facts depends wherever YOU realize that can be possible. So its not about discovering truth, is just a selfish sense of being the judge of right or wrong. And anybody do that.

This kind of talk is for the small minded (that includes atheists, christians and any form of conviction), that will only try to shut you down whenever they feel corrected.

For example, Astrology was subject of thousands of years of knowledge and educations in cultures like China and India. There is lots of lots of studies and well educated people in this matter in this both countries.
But now IGNORANT teenagers and young adults, or elder fundamentalists won't take even a 5 minutes study on the subject and already feel free to condemn all the subject and believers.
That happens with every spiritual subject. And its freak annoying, is the f... babel tower over and over again.

I for one i prefer to first really understand what great spiritual minds have to say, and not trying to shut them up with my ignorance. They for sure had much more going on on their minds than i had. I didn't move the life of billions of people, and I wont.

The UNIVERSE is so big that we can't even count it for this day, we don't know the extansion of his hugeness. So anytime a person put a limit in something that is infinite that is small mindness and fundamentalism.

There is rules in the universe, spiritual rules are not unscientific, or unproofable, they just are unknown to this date.
If Life after death exists or not, it is the reality for everybody. Either we all not experience the nothingness or all of us leave in the afterlife. The reality of the facts is the rule, and one of them is.

You may say that we can't never know, or nothing can be proof. That is bullshit, that is a lie you tell yourself to feel better.
There are a great number of spiritual leaders that KNOWS stuff (and not just believe), they can give you lectures for days, weeks or months in a single small spiritual subject. Is your call about not accepting either these people or their information.
Why I know they know? Because they see reality, and the things they talk about really happens, and they are precise.

Ow, and about the miracles in the bible. They are the most easy thing in the Bible to proof, because they are happening all the time. But is easy when you have an inteligent mind and can make inteligent excuses to dismiss yourself the duty of seeing reality as it is.

Since they're happening all the time, surely you can help us small-minded atheists find some well-documented examples...

I'm a multi-atheist. There are multiple God I don't belive in.

^ +1

I'm a multi-agnostic. There are multiple gods I don't know anything of.

I havn't read all 10 pages, so tell me if it was in this thread before, but I have a question for you religious people:

If God exists, I don't think he is both all-knowing and all-good. If he is all-knowing and all-good then why did he never taught us the basics of hygiene? Just simply telling us that most sicknesses are caused by bacteria/virusses could have saved millions of (innocent) lives. So why didn't he?

A) he doesn't knows about bacteria. Thus, he didn't create them and he isn't all-knowing either. That's a serious problem to his god-being.

B) he doesn't cares about us, people and/or isn't all-good (actually rather bad). What's the use of worshipping such a God- except for fear ?

C) He doesn't exists.

It's just one of the many paradoxes that are part of religion. If you can find a way out, please tell me.

From what I understand, Islam tells you not to eat pork because it used to be a bad idea (pigs carried diseases which could transfer to humans if they ate the meat (without properly cooking it...!?)). So in a sense, that's God (or Allah, what's in a name) telling his followers something about hygiene. I have no idea whether or not the Quran explains the reason behind that rule ("doing so could make you sick"), but with or without the existence of an omniscient being, he/she/it couldn't possibly have explained the *detailed* reason behind that rule ("there's nasty microbes in there").

Of course, another explanation would be that some clever contemporaries noted the fact that eating pork meat could make you ill and (desperate to make people actually listen to them) made the message come from a divine being, instead of telling it themselves. For all I know, they started by telling people and (when large amounts of people started to notice the advice was sound) they themselves decided the message must've come from "above".

Interesting opinion, because I wasn't thinking of eating pork, but you're right on that. I was more thinking about epidemies like Plague. Perhaps we may conclude that Allah is better then God? :) (as far as they're not the same)

well this is a paradox just for people who doesnt have a belief.. let me explain: i'll make an example of a thing that really happened to my girlfriend's aunt. she was in rome for the jubilee (think it was 20 years ago more or less) she was on a very crowded bus and she was standing right near on the doors, since the autobus was too crowded the doors didnt bear all that weight and just opened, she was the first to fall and she died in the impact while her 2 little children fell upon her seeing their mother dead. plus she was a really good and devote woman. with an history like that u can easily proove that god really doesnt care about us right? wrong! and it is wrong for a very simple fact, heaven. she went to heaven the biggest gift and joy ever, so this story is a tragedy to people who doesnt believe in god but not to people who believe in it. so when u say that god doesnt care u should consider also the real existance of god and that this life with all her tragedies is nothing compared to the joy of heaven or the tragedy of hell. i know that u will probably laugh about this cos u dont believe in heaven too, but u have started ur ipothesis saying "if god exist" so if god exist u cannot exclude heaven. plus there are 2 other facts: if god exist He is absolutely wiser and more aknoledged and more (u can put whatever adjective u want)than u. so the fact of judjing his actions claiming to understand and also judje them is just a totally fool thing. there is a third thing that proove that every human try to demonstrate existance or non existance of god has no sense but about this look cartesium philosphy:P

@antiloopje:
|> Perhaps we may conclude that Allah is better then God? :) (as far as they're not the same)

Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if similar examples exist in Christianity / the Bible (I just don't know any off the top of my head). Besides, they're the same entity anyway; the difference between Jews, Christians and Muslims is not which God they believe in, but the way they practice their believe (different customs, rituals, etc.). I'm not sure about Mohammed, but Jesus was Jewish.

---

@Your Time:
I don't care how beautiful Heaven is; if I were God I'd have waited giving her that present until her children were older..., a lot older. If Heaven is eternal, it doesn't matter one bit whether you go there now, tomorrow or in a million years; you'll be there just as long (mathematically speaking, `infinity - some (finite!) number = infinity` is a valid statement). But on *this* end, those years would've made all the difference!

And now I step in just to show my little and, more than likely, easily disprovable point of view:
I am a Catholic Christian, yet I believe in many of the things that non-Catholics (or non-extreme Christians) would believe in, i.e. gay rights and evolution. Since we are gradually changing as a society, I see no wrong for religion to conform with it. It seems that no matter what you believe in, no one wants to have someone else's beliefs imposed upon them, whether you are Christian, atheist, Buddhist, or Muslim.
And, regarding the use of the Bible or Quran to prove or disprove your point, don't take it literally or read into it more than needed. It may have been God's word, but it was fallible humans who wrote it down, therefore the Bible is bound to have flaws. Considering the fact that it was written 3 000 years ago, that it had to be translated from Hebrew, Greek, and Latin into the numerous languages in the world today, and that the printing press was invented around 1440, the Bible could have been changed easily or been mistranslated without too many people pointing out the mistake between the time it was originally written and the time it was officially printed from a printing press.

@ rvw it's most likely mohammed was jewish he came from the medina region where some jewish people were mostof the medinas population including mecca was jewish
and ither sources show he was from a jewish place and was jewish.

@Ironheart:
It doesn't matter that much if we can proove that he was born jewish does it? He's the founder of a jewish sect, that should speak for it self. :P


@Julkorn:
Your theodicy there doesn't sound very mainline-christian. If I may ask, what's your background?

Have you ever read Quran?

my religion is islam. i can only try!! to tell you Allah or try!! to answer your questions. but when i was doing this i may add my ideas, or someone's ideas(both of them can be wrong and after you start to search you will see there is a lot of wrong things which added to islam by humans). after i read quran all i can say is "Allah is only one god" and "Quran is Allah's word". i cant tell you Allah better than Allah, right?. Quran has never been changed and it will be never changed. as a muslim we can only try to understand the message of Allah. i wanna share some videos for people who wants to watch. You will see that things that make you far from Islam are not in Quran. please forget all the things (good or bad) about islam before starting to read quran.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmSjoMnjD-Y&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2TvpoU7S0I&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjLbxmSJTVI&feature=related

PART 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P912yw0Wc5M&feature=related

PART 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doL8AtLN9Aw

i am studying electronics engineering at one of the best univesity of Turkey, i know physics, chemistry etc.

mohammed was from mecca. his grandfather worked at the shrine for the local gods that is now the holiest place for muslims. mohammed went to medina because many of his fellow meccans held fast to their traditional gods and did not accept mohammed's ideas. he returned to mecca as a conqueror, but refrained from taking the city and instead negotiated, since it wouldn't be especially attractive if he took the holiest city by force.

medina had a small jewish population. if mecca had any jews, they were afforded less acceptance than they received in medina, which was a more tolerant city (hence mohammed's hijra to medina from mecca).

@rvw well u have prooved my point:P u said if i were God (eccetera eccetera) but u are not god! a human cannot even understand the less part of god actions so u cannot say what could happen if a bad thing won't happened. so even a bad thing can turn in a very good thing here in 1000 years, and u cannot foreseen it thats way u cannot make a judgement about what u think that is bad and u think that is not. anyway i dont pretend that u understand how irrilevant is this life respect of eternal life, cos once again it is just a belief problem, but still i forever think that there are no proofs now and in the future about the non existance of god. i dont hate atheist people absolutely (i'm just sad for them as they are sad for me) but i just dislike them when they wont to demonstrate of being right:(

I have a question;
I am orthodox by birth, however I am not very devout.
Now, this is why I am asking: How were people judged in the first place? The desendants of Adam and Eve? My limited knowledge of the Bible leads me to beleive that Adam and Eve did have children but I can't be too ceartain.

If it so happens they did not, however, how would God judge people?

Which leads me to another point...how to people get judged when they die to go to heaven/hell? Is there a mix between the Underworld (greek mythology)/Judgment Hall(Egyptian mythology)? Becuase basically Christianity is a gigantic mixture of religions everywhere else.

Btw, do you how how God is usually pictured? An old very intimidating by with a white beard right? You know where that came from? ZEUS, the father of all gods in Greek Mythology. Fun fact of the day

Why does this thread exist on warlight? :P

Why do girls exist on warlight?

Hi all. Again too may posts to answer them individually, but glad to have revived the debate^^

Thanks to [WM] x for the help^^ You expressed many of my thoughts on religion in a much wittier way than I would have been able! +1 to all you said.

About my list of most hateful religions, of course I have reasons to put them in that order. Of course this is very subjective, and just my personal opinion, influenced by my particular circumstances, such as being gay.

1. Islam. IMHO is by far the most dangerous and hateful religion, both to its believers and to people who don't believe in it. I have read most of Qran (in Spanish, not in Arabic of course) trying not to be too judgemental, but it has scared the shit out of me more than any other fiction book I have read, specially knowing that millions of people consider it to be undeniably true.

A quote from Sura 2, right at the start!

"6. As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. 7. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur). 23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. 24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith."

Now, the bad things I have to say about Islam could be also said about Christianity, the difference being that while traditionally Christian societies have become more secular and open-minded in the last years, Islamic societies seem to have gone back to the middle ages.

Now, the actual reasons:

A- Obscurantism: religious beliefs hamper the development of Science and censor art, literature and philosophy. There was a time when the Islamic world was s beacon of science, research, philosophy and creativity. Sadly, right now it has become quite the opposite.

B- Misogyny: Islam systematically treats women as third-class citizens, just above animals. I do not think I have to go into detail in this point. Some say this is something cultural and it's not directly derived from Qran, but the problem is that Islam PERMITS things such as genital mutilation to occur while other religions wouldn't.

C- Homophobia: Every single day of my life, I thank god (irony) for having been born in the place and time I have been born. If I had been born 1000 km south of here or 50 years ago, my life would be much much more miserable. And I have been raised as a Catholic, attending a catholic school and high school and going to mass every sunday.

(continues from point C in last post). Dealing with my sexuality in this society was a bit of a struggle when I was a teenager, but nowadays my sexuality is accepted by everybody I know, and I have the legal right in Spain to get married to a man and adopt children. ^^ I don't see that happening in any country with a mainly Muslim population any time soon!

So yes, these are mostly my reasons to despise Islam. It especially annoys me since it is a childish and false belief (as any other religion). The existence of god as portrayed in Islam and Christianity can be easily refuted, and you can choose to accept the reality or to keep denying it (red pill or blue pill, my friends).

And yes, I have heard all the counter-arguments: I know Islam is not a monolithic culture and that it varies a lot from one region or age to other (same as Christianity, Hinduism or Buddhism). But that doesn't make me unable to judge it as undesirable for me or any other human being.

I also know Christianity can be as bad as Islam, but that doesn't make Islam any better. A psycopath that has killed 100 people doesn't turn a psycopath who has killed 80 into a saint.

I am happy to identify myself as Islamophobic (not racist at all, though, my ex-boyfriend is Indian and black as a crow). I show no respect for a false belief system that make millions of people miserable. I'm not disrespectful to Muslim individuals though, I do have some Muslim friends ("relaxed" ones) who don't judge me for my sexuality. I even tricked one once into eating pork. XD

It also annoys me when people say "but moderate Islam is not bad". Well, for me it's bad enough.

The alleged benefits of this or any other religions, such as charity and consolation, seem quite feeble to me comparing to all the bad things the convey. We can be charitable without the need of religion. I prefer to donate to a charity that is not going to build churches or indoctrinate the ones they help (more money for hospitals). About consolation, I am ok if someone decides to believe a lie to make their lives a bit less miserable, but it is still a lie.

I hope none got offended personally as it is not my intention, but disguising reality doesn't help anyone.