|>There's (apparently) a huge difference between Christians in general and "the Church" in particular. Please don't judge the first group by the acts of the second (also, not all cardinals and higher ups are bad of course).

Of course ordinary Catholics weren't at all to blame for the cover ups, and I hold no grudge against them(otherwise I wouldn't get along well with my mother :P).

However, these higher-ups claim to be bastions of morality and constantly claim that there is no morality without religion. I would argue that religion is not only completely unneccessary for living a moral life but actually forces you to defend immoral things e.g. denying gay people rights

Ace:

Are you also still without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth enters the stomach, and goes out into the sewer? But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this is what defiles. For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.

Matthew 15:16-19

|> Oh, that's simple, with the assumptions things would be much worse still if there was no god. Either that or the "God's testing our faith" line...

God is omnipotent, surely then he knows what everyone will do? He exists outside of everything that we know i.e. space and time. Then there can be no test. He knows all, doesn't he?

And things would be worse? That's just silly. He makes things a little better then? But still allows all the horrors that occur? Sounds more malevolent than benevolent.

Yeah yeah Jesus, I get it, we're all terrible on the inside. Thanks for giving us original sin so you could come down and play hero though, smooth.

Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your heart?

Luke 24:38

lol..never start a thread about: religion, sport/fav teams, racism. they will always be a mess

Go Blackhawks! (Whoops)

okay i didn't real *all* of some of those long posts on the first page, ill come back to them later.

I don't base my opinions solely off the extreme cases that are on TV and shit. I see it all, from the "facebook christian" to the people who live their entire lives carrying a bible, and everything in between.

@Ognian: I guess i didn't make it clear, I meant that i don't know much about *other* organized religions like Catholicism or Islamic, which is why I was only commenting on Christianity.

@Richard: Bigotry is like stereotypes, If its 100% true, is it still wrong? Go ahead and believe that God snapped his fingers and created the entire universe in 7 days, while you're at it, go kill 90% of your friends and family because they've done work on a Sunday.

@Ace: <3

|> Are you also still without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth enters the stomach, and goes out into the sewer? But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this is what defiles. For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.

Come again...!? Wasn't it usually love which comes out of the heart (I mean, we *are* speaking metaphorically, right?)...
And how is "stuff which goes into the sewer" (how did that make it into the Bible anyway; the sewer wasn't even invented back then...) any better than stuff you just puked out?

@Ace:
Just to be perfectly clear, while I'm technically Christian (baptised, first communion, confirmation) I wouldn't describe myself as such. Sure, I do believe in the "core" ("don't do upon others (..)", "love thy neighbour" (they meant [like this](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0265208/), right? ;) ), etc. -- in short, the "just be a decent person" rules) but that's about it.

The way I see it (more or less following Moros' approach here), if there is no god, it doesn't matter anyway. So let's assume there is one. Then either he [1] made me exactly how I am (again, no point fighting it), or I have at least some free will, so let's assume that I do.
Now, there's (in broad strokes) three ways this god can judge whether you're fit to go to heaven. Either he determines how well you paid lip service (did you pray every day, did you go to church every Sunday) or he determines how well you lived by the rules, the third option is taking both into account.
In the first case, I don't particularly like this god at all anyway; why would I even want to go to a place run by someone who only cares about keeping up appearances?
So I'm putting my money on the second case.
In the third case, it would greatly help if the second part is (preferably by far) the most important. But hey, if I was created by god, it's his own bloody fault my mind is not wired up in such a way to make me able to believe in him; it would be a pretty nasty trick to then use that against me, right? Besides, what else am I gonna do? Be one of those "agnostics" that pray everyday "because it doesn't hurt"!? I sure wouldn't want to have to answer the question "I see you prayed to me everyday... yet in your heart you don't believe I even exist, how come?"... (And again, I wouldn't much like any god who'd be impressed by any answer I'd come up with, since no matter the exact wording, it still boils down to "Better sure than sorry".)

---

[1] That's just a practical abbreviation for "he/she/it"

Lykus, A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back. (Proverbs 29:11)

RvW, When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent. (Proverbs 10:19)

Personally, I believe religion is a waste of time. Why do you need a book or someone else to tell you how you live?
But some people dig it and I don't mind that if they feel it is worth it; it's when they intervene with other peoples' lives that I dislike it. Being religious or not I think people should just enjoy life and do things that are fun and make life worth living, after all isn't that the aim of life?

FYI Lykus, Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity XD

Also, You're totally wrong about bigotry and stereotypes. I don't think I should even have to explain that.

RvW, lol at your neighbour.

To address your point, if you assume you have free will then you are assuming that god is not omnipotent.

Major Risk, Amen to that ;P

|> Bigotry is like stereotypes, If its 100% true, is it still wrong?

YES, even then it's still wrong! Because even **if** (and I have to stress the "if") it's 100% true, for each and every single one of all the one billion (??) Christians on this entire planet, there's still no reason to assume it will be true for everyone *and **for all times***.

Sure, you could come up with a weird exception (how about "all bigots are idiots"?) and I'd have a hard time deciding whether or not that's a valid claim, but in general, every statement of the form "all [insert group of people] are [insert some property]" are either patently obvious ("all murderers are criminals" [1]) or they're completely and utterly false.

---

[1] Note I said "murderers", *not* "killers". For instance, ending someone's life in self-defence means you've killed someone, but (legally speaking) you didn't murder them.

|>Just to be perfectly clear, while I'm technically Christian (baptised, first communion, confirmation) I wouldn't describe myself as such. Sure, I do believe in the "core" ("don't do upon others (..)", "love thy neighbour

To me, that's perfectly respectable. Have your own morals and views, not what the people thousands of years ago thought was right (AKA the bible).

Its the devout Christians that i really hate.
People that call themselves Christians that have never even read a page of the bible just really frustrate me.


@Ace + RvW: yeah im not 100% serious about the stereotypes and bigotry, It was kind of a joke -.-

am a christian and you can hate me for it am not a terroist and am not against gays i wouldn't advice it but we cannot let what happens behind closed doors change relationships love thy neighbour.however food for thought how do you explain jesus in real life do you reckons he was a fake then plus i do feel catholics are of the church of the devil dosen't mean i hate them but history suggest catholics got rid of most of the bible how did the romans conquer the jews when it was the pope's fault.

Another point i do feel that some muslims take their religion to the extreme enough to kill people what kind ogf God will condone that and write it in his book to kill people.
Also we can have this debate about wheather God exist but it will just be a big waste because when it comes to religion people are very stubborn.

|> When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent. (Proverbs 10:19)

So that would make each and every single tweet "prudent", seeing as how it was squeezed into 140 characters. Or is that not what you meant by "restrain"? See, that's the problem with "restrains your lips", it makes it so incredibly hard to properly explain.

Talking about "restraining", how long is the Bible again? And didn't it get a wee bit verbose in some places?

|>how did the romans conquer the jews when it was the pope's fault.

wut I don't even

|>what kind ogf God will condone that and write it in his book to kill people.

The Judeo-Christian god perhaps?

|>Also we can have this debate about wheather God exist but it will just be a big waste because when it comes to religion people are very stubborn.

I hate this. A lot atheists were brought up with religion - case in point, me. Clearly I changed my mind about religion and so have many others so I would argue that this isn't a waste.

@Ironheart: So you're a Christian, but you don't base your beliefs on the bible? Or do you just pick and choose what to base your beliefs on?

If God had his way, human life wouldn't exist.


"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."

"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death"

"Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death"

nice thread. interesting oppinions.
Moros' first post is incredible. Ιmagine they teached things like that in schools. We would have a smarter, more free of prejudise world.

I see all Major Religions as business still holding its market, relying on the power it got from back when people needed metaphysical explanations for the many things they did not understand and *fear*. Μost importantly *death*.
This business' main target is to exploit and *profit* our fear for the unknown. They have commited wars and the most terible crimes in the name of faith.
It could or should be named as **"the bearded gang"**.

There are preachers who believe in what they say and do, trying hard to spread "the word" but don't get confused. Others above them in the pristhood hierarchy do not see it that way. Those who climb the ranks know only personal interest and profit. Don't expect that to change only because they wear a beard.

Lykus, you start the thread with the claim that most religion discussions end up with poor arguments that hardly even constitute a discussion. This is the first reason not to bring up a religion discussion.

You proceed to give a poorly backed, bigoted, and downright disgusting generalization of what is the majority of the western world. This is the second reason not to bring up a religious discussion.

In my opinion, AMEN to the words of Major Risk.