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Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 02:35:43


Platinum
Level 61
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Hello ladies and gentleman and non-binaries!

After Outlaws victory over GG , we've decided to challenge M'Hunters. It will be the same format as the Outlaws vs GG clan battle which will be for this specific battle: (Thanks to Norman for helping me organise)

* 9 Players on each clan
* 9 Match-ups
* 3 1v1 games
* Each 1v1 game is 1 point.
* 3 Templates (Greece, Old Ladder, China)
* Each team has seeded their players 1-9, Seed 1s play each.. 2s play each.. etc.
* 27 points available meaning a clan must acquire 14 points to win the battle.

These are the match-ups for this battle:

Odin vs AI
Njord vs Leopard
aoc vs RogueNK
Krzystof vs EmuPub
Platinum vs AJ Chiller
Bonsai vs b00m.
Lucien Muller vs Georgie
Facetroll vs AyanM
Stales78 vs NoName2.1

Post your predictions on who you think will win the clan battle or the individual battles (ideally both!)

Best of luck and let's have a good Clan Battle.

Edited 12/20/2018 02:37:11
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 02:36:35


Platinum
Level 61
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Clan Battle Scoreboard:

1. Odin vs AI (0-0)
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321394
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321400
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321432

2. Njord vs Leopard (0-3)
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321409
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321418
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321423
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17386441t

3. aoc vs RogueNK (0-0)
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321434
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321437
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321442

4. Krzystof vs EmuPub (0-2)
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321457
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321459
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321463

5. Platinum vs AJ Chiller (0-0)
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321475
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321472
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321467

6. Bonsai vs b00m (0-0)
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321483
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321486
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321497

7. Lucien Muller vs Georgie (1-2)
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321503
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321512
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321515

8. Facetroll vs AyanM (0-0)
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321518
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321521
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321525

9. Stales78 vs NoName2.1 (2-1)
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321534
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321537
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321545

(First to 14 wins)
Outlaws A - 3
M'Hunters - 8

Edited 12/27/2018 19:43:07
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 03:48:07


Emu Pub
Level 63
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Odin 1, AI 2 (If AI takes these seriously, he wins one easy, loses one to some dumb move, and wins a tight 3rd one)
Njord 1, Leopard 2 (Don't know much about njord, so this could be wrong, but I know leopard is excellent at a few templates)
Aoc 1, RNK 2 (RNK may win all 3, AOC is good, but RNK will be a tough out for anyone.)
Krzystof 2, EP 1 (Who seed me this high?) (I will lose one, that I am winning from making some drunk moves)
Plat 1, AJ 2 (See my note on Njord, this could be wrong, haven't played plat much)
Bonsai 1, b00m 2 (b00m is rusty from a long time off of WL, but he was excellent when he left.)
Lucien 0, Georgie 3 (Who seeded georgie this low??? Seriously, the dude is a beast. Ohhhh and Lucien is an arrogant $#%$# who is on my BL so he loses all 3 just cause I don't like him)
Facetroll 3, AyanM 0 (Who seeded Ayan so high? I mean seriously....have you read any of his poetry? That alone gives him 3 losses)
Stales 0, Noname 3 (Sorry stales, you are playing one the future stars of MH, he is still learning and you may take one from him, but i'm betting on all 3.)

Outlaws 10- MH 17

Okay realistically I say we win but not that much, 14-13 MH.
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 04:09:57


Norman 
Level 58
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Who seeded georgie this low??? Seriously, the dude is a beast.

georgie was picky about his oppoents. He was actually supposed to play bonsai. Thinking about predictions, what are the chances of the chat between georgie and Lucien getting heated up?

Edited 12/20/2018 04:17:01
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 04:59:38


Emu Pub
Level 63
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^ I think it should be good reading...
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 05:05:37


Platinum
Level 61
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Who is B00M? He has only 28 MD games, so I'm assuming he's an Alt or something? If so, from who?
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 05:51:20


Emu Pub
Level 63
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he was Neovim, but lost his account information from a long break.
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 05:52:24


Platinum
Level 61
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Clan Histories..

Outlaws has finished 3rd in Clan League 10 and 9.
M'Hunters has finished 5th in Clan League 10 and won Division B in Clan League 9.

Head to head results of Outlaws vs M'Hunters in Clan League 10 were... (Based off memory, something will be wrong)

Guiroma - Outlaws
Greece - Outlaws
French Brawl - Outlaws
Pangea - M'Hunters
Elitist Africa - M'Hunters
Battle Islands - Outlaws

2v2
Volcano Island - M'Hunters
Szeurope - Outlaws
Final Earth - M'Hunters

3v3
Europe - Outlaws
Biomes - M'Hunters

Outlaws - 21
M'Hunters - 19
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 06:32:51


Platinum
Level 61
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p.s I had a giggle making the Lucien Muller and Georgie games :D
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 06:41:12


Platinum
Level 61
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Andddddddd the games are made! It's officially started.

Edited 12/20/2018 06:41:28
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 08:37:21


AI 
Level 63
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Predictions (biased):

Odin vs AI: 2-1 I'm usually drunk at that time of the year so should be an easy one for Odin. However, I will get my first pick in the China template (and no, I will not make my 1st pick in the +1 in the North) and easily win this.

Njord vs Leopard: 1-2 Tough matchup to predict, both players are highly underrated.

aoc vs RogueNK: 0-3 If Rogue cares about his games, he's a BEAST.

Krzystof vs EmuPub: 2-1 Meh, we put the bird against Krzystof.

Platinum vs AJ Chiller: 2-1 AJ has great potential, but there are some more things to learn. Plat has the advantage in experience here.

Bonsai vs b00m.: 2-1 b00m came back from retirement, give him some more time and it will be 0-3.

Lucien Muller vs Georgie: 1-2 georgie will swipe this, I'm happy he doesn't have to play Small Earth though ;-)

Facetroll vs AyanM: 2-1 Ayan will try hard to prove he's better than Emu, but lately he cares too much about poetries.

Stales78 vs NoName2.1: 1-2 NoName will prove himself worthy of playing in Division A next year.

Overall: Outlaws - MH: 13-14
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 10:11:18


Norman 
Level 58
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However, I will get my first pick in the China template (and no, I will not make my 1st pick in the +1 in the North) and easily win this.

You just told me in the most brutal way that my template sucks :(

I hope you win 2-1 against Odin, get your first pick on the China template and lose the game.
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 10:40:03


AI 
Level 63
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Haha Norman, didn't know that was your template :D
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 12:08:57


AyanM 
Level 60
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my poetries are great.
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 12:34:12


Bonsai 
Level 61
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Aw, georgie was scared of me.

It's clear that we don't really know your players and you don't really know ours, ha.
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 12:48:11


Platinum
Level 61
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I think I've only ever played with AI...
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/20/2018 19:36:55


Platinum
Level 61
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First win goes to M'Hunters
Gj emu
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/21/2018 02:44:26


Platinum
Level 61
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Stales takes the first win for Outlaws.

Outlaws A 1-1 M'Hunters

I'll update the scores when all 3 games of a battle ends from now on.
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/21/2018 04:19:21


Norman 
Level 58
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Stales against NoName 2.1: https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321537

NoName 2.1 apparently doesn't know about the old weighted random times. He goes up to pick 6, however that 6th pick in the East US is a pick nobody has every chosen back in the old days (if not for a combo or counter).

Mainly due to his bad bonus in East US and secondly due to his bad expansion in Antartica, he loses the game.

I like the fact that both players expected to split the first turn bonus and thus went for fast +3 bonuses as the remaining choices. In this sense I also like Stales pick 6 as a nice combo with Indonesia for expected early very aggressive play.

What I don't like from both players is the order in which they chose their 1+2. The reason is that I like to see WarLight as a pressure game. Here the pressure is clearly on the player in Greenland while the player in Scandinavian Peninsula can choose from a couple of options. If the player in Finland fails to take Svalbard or loses it, he also probably immediately loses the game.

At the first turn the player in Greenland has to take Svalbard already or risk the opponent hiting it turn 2. Meanwhile NoName 2.1 might have gone full force in Scandinavian Peninsula and depending on the luck factor he might now be able to just hammer him. But then of course No Name 2.1 might have just sit in Sweden laughing at his opponent killing neutrals in his bonus.

What I also find quite questionable is how NoName 2.1 planned to play the game out after picks. His opponent couldn't have expected him in East US so when he should have showed up there he should have showed up having the bonus already. Being at a bonus speed disadvantage at the start he should also have highly considered not moving in Scandinavian Peninsula.

Edited 12/21/2018 04:25:14
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/21/2018 05:27:58


Platinum
Level 61
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My Predictions:

1. Odin vs AI (2-1)
Odin had a great win against MIFRAN but AI is a strong player, this could go either way but I give the edge to Odin but wouldn't be surprised if it went the other way.

2. Njord vs Leopard (2-1)
Leopard is a strong player from the looks (on 1v1 ladder and 3v3 ladder template) but Njord managed to get #1 on the MDL which is a very strong achievement and has that experience on a different variation of templates than Leopard would have from the looks. So I go for a 2-1 for Njord, It's a great opportunity for Leopard to show off really.

3. aoc vs RogueNK (2-1)

Aoc had a convincing 3-0 thrasing of JV, RogueNK is a very good player who really focuses, can be a dangerous opponent. I haven't seen Rogue on any other template except French Brawl, while aoc has gotten around 1900 on MDL , Therefore I'm going to go with aoc here.

4. Krzystof vs Emu Pub (1-2)

With Emu Pub winning a game already, I'm already having him as the potential favourite. I would however expect Krzystof to win the Old Ladder game considering it's one of his favourite templates. It will be a decider between him and Emu Pub on China, I'm going to go ahead and Edge Emu Pub to win it.

5. Platinum vs AJ Chiller (2-1)

On paper, I seem to have more skill and experience but that can all be eroded if AJ Chiller try hards against me. I don't anything about how he plays and he doesn't know how I plaw except he has advantage of analysing me. This could give a weird result, however, I think I'm favourite for this one but I won't be surprised if it goes the other way.

6. Bonsai vs b00m (2-1)

Bonsai seems to have more on paper, I don't anything about B00m.. Bonsai managed to beat Linberson who's a very highly skilled player so for that reason I'm going to put my bet on Bonsai to edge it 2-1.

7. Lucien Muller vs Georgie (1-2)

This can go either way, both very interesting characters with different temperaments of playing. I'm going to go with Georgie because I get that instinct of something special with him. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if Lucien won this 3-0.

8. Facetroll vs AyanM (2-1)

On the competitive scene, Ayan hasn't been on the competitive scene lately from what I've seen , while Facetroll has on practically everything 1800 on MDL.. 2000 on 1v1... So logically, I give the Edge to Facetroll here.

9. Stales78 vs NoName2.1 (2-1)

Stales is a favourite on Greece for me but I also feel like NoName2.1 will pull a win on China. This mean it's 1-1 but Stales has the Old Ladder game won, So I'm going to conclude on a 2-1 win for Stales.


(First to 14 wins)
Outlaws A - 16
M'Hunters - 11

M'Hunters has that unknown factor about them, will it surprise us or not? I don't know we'll see.

Edited 12/21/2018 05:28:21
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/21/2018 06:52:59


Norman 
Level 58
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Emu Pub against Krzystof - https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321457

This game shows exactly why I wanted the China template as a counter balance. Here you make your picks, play 2 turns and then one player surrenders. I'm glad Emu Pub did that well since in the past I have seen some nonsense play from my clanmates on this template.

I believe I can find a bit of rationale in Emu Pubs picks 8 and 9 but still they seem very questionable. I also can't understand why he didn't swap his picks 4 and 5. Everything went Emu Pubs way this game. Overall two good players faced each other here, Krzystof got outpicked in a manageable way, had a bit bad luck, guessed the opponents moves completely wrong and in the end lost the game.
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/21/2018 07:03:33


Platinum
Level 61
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China is a poor template tho Norman... Do you really view it as a good template?
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/21/2018 07:49:00

NoName 2.1
Level 56
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Yes @Norman im a new entry of Warzone’s competition and never in my games lost 2 picks when the match started. I’m not considering the option that i can’t expand in US and I lost the game for that since first turn.

Now I know that and i try to do not commit same errors other times ;) gg for stayles very good player and good luck all for this clan battle guys
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/21/2018 08:54:32


Norman 
Level 58
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China is a poor template tho Norman... Do you really view it as a good template?

Well, first you have to define what defines a bad template.

- I see a template as bad if it has a very dominant first pick and whoever gets it probably wins. I don't believe this is the case here.

- Some see a template as bad if there is no dominant picking strategy which can hardly be countered. This is the stance of players liking the 3v3 Europe template. The 2v2 ladder template is kinda the opposite where there usually is a viable opponent strategy against which your picks are disadvantageous. I believe that this China template there is somewhere in between, but closer to 3v3 Europe. As for myself I can live with templates where it's possible to get super unluckily countered despite being "objectively" the better player.

- I see a template as bad if there is no variation in the expected picks from game to game. I avoid this by having added those 15 wastelands of size 4 here. The goal of those wastelands is to shift the "board weight" from game to game. In this sense I see the 3v3 Europe ladder template as bad.

- What some players can see as problematic here are the +1 bonuses since it's very disadvantagous if the opponent has it and you picked next to it. However then again this would be probably your own fault.

I was thinking about whether there should be 4 or 5 picks in 1v1. 5 picks would make the template more fighting heavy due to easier map coverage however since the Greece template is already so much centered around immediate fights, I wanted a template which offers some possible expansion options.

What also is to be said is, that the then "elite" WarLight oldtimers, way before your and AIs time used to play a lot of 2v2 teamgames on this map. The map was also created by Qi, who used to be one of the very best players. So in other words, the then maybe best player put his thoughts into creating a strategic map and I appreciate his thought process (https://www.warzone.com/Map/8144-China).
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/21/2018 09:33:38


Norman 
Level 58
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Another aspect isn't a matter of whether a template is bad or good but whether it's enjoyable for you as a player. I believe Fizzer understands the mainstream Warzone community correctly in that they want an epic clash between armies with back and forth, crazy maneuvers and in the end there is a winner. Those are the vast majority of the open games and this is also the reason RoR is so popular. On the other side there are the more "elitist" templates where you can more or less reroll after picks since the victor is already decided.

Interestingly I might be the most elitist elitist here since I keep asking my clanmates to stop playing the game but instead just make the picks and then think about how the game was supposed to play out from there. So if you like the Greece template which is decided in the first 1 to 5 turns, you are with me but if you like those epic clashes, you are with 99% of the Warzone population.

I'm playing some Age of Empires II online and there it's the same way. The "mainstream noobs" like to boom up to the Imperial Age and then clash together. The Pros however like those open maps where from the very start you are under pressure and a tiny misplay can cost you the game.

Edited 12/21/2018 09:42:08
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/21/2018 09:35:05


AI 
Level 63
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But Norman...

I see a template as bad if it has a very dominant first pick and whoever gets it probably wins.


I see a template as bad if there is no variation in the expected picks from game to game.


...this is definetely the case on China much more than on other templates.


China 2v2 is better, a little bit like EU. I played it in CL a couple seasons ago and it was good.
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/21/2018 10:12:19


Norman 
Level 58
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No, I really don't believe this is the case, @AI:

Here for example is one of the still ongoing games where I can see the pick distribution:
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321545

I see lots of great bonuses in which you can place your picks and without a thorough analysis I see some good candidates for first picks but no most obvious one. As long as nobody picked next to an opponent +1 I believe both players should feel quite happy with what they got after picks and have a decent understanding about where their opponent is. Contrary to you thinking about the North being OP I would feel way more pressured about how to attack the opponent in those Eastern Islands. So far the game is already going on for 15 turns, so apparently there is a "real" game happening here.

Edited 12/21/2018 10:12:40
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/21/2018 10:23:54


AI 
Level 63
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I don't think there is a way to pick around the +1's in the game that you linked...

And you mentioned another point of the template, games can go on forever because you can always try to outexpand your opponent, which usually doesn't work.
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/21/2018 11:14:19


Norman 
Level 58
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I don't think there is a way to pick around the +1's in the game that you linked...

If players keep picking the +1s first, I could just inrease the neutral armies in distribution from currently +3 to, for example, +5 which would be a major shift to the balance. However I can't see a particular +1 as beeing OP here and picking the +1s high also works in 2v2 team games, probably even more than here.

The only thing I'm a little bit worried about when looking at the map is the strength of the eastern islands but then again this somewhat is simliar to 3v3 Europe where you are also in trouble when not having an island spot.

And you mentioned another point of the template, games can go on forever because you can always try to outexpand your opponent, which usually doesn't work.
If you see expanding as a bad thing then just inrease the number of picks. I kept it at 4 here since this is the RoR replacement which got rejected by Platinum. Also you might find this template way more fight centered than you think it is, just that it's not all lost after a completely non skill based 50% chance guess which made Krzystof surrender against Emu Pub on turn 2.

Edit: I remember some of our clan members being quite hyped about a RoR tournament (https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17104993). This is a map usually played on 3v3 and well, such games are what the majority of Warzone sees as how the game is supposed to get played. As for myself I stronly disagree with those full distribution no wasteland settings, however this isn't preventing players from having a great time.

Edited 12/21/2018 12:01:49
Outlaws A vs M'Hunters: 12/21/2018 11:40:17

IRiseYouFall
Level 59
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u all so biased.

RogueNK going 3-0 against aoc? funny joke lol

ai winning against odin? LOL

or georgie winning against muller? :joy:

outlaws wins, but for sure mh will give a good challenge especially with leopard and AJ Chiller. sorry plat, but there are good chances you will lose your battle
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