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Something that Tabby would be interested in: 6/19/2017 16:39:23

Level 60

THE ANNOUNCER: I am a representative of KarterGames.

Players are currently matched up against one another in groups of five. We are well aware that one player's trolling will ruin the game for others, so if you see someone intentionally dying to the enemy team over and over in hopes of giving them free kills, please report them.

But since people want their reports to catch our attention sooner, players have made the habit of "asking for reports". This is telling other players of your team, or the other team, to report "Player X" because they've done something that you think has entirely ruined the fun of the game for others.

We're here to assure you that we don't ban people for "asking for reports" in itself. However, since flaming is another bannable offense, we will ban you if we see that it's more so verbal abuse rather than a geniue request.

"Just don't be a dick about it" should be every player's baseline approach to the matter.

MARKUS: Subjective at best...... more miscommunication at it's finest.

KNYTE: You do realize that stating 'don't be a dick about it' is extremely subjective, don't you?

Not trying to be rude but, have you taken any civics courses, psychology, behavioral studies etc....? Anyone who understands the fundamentals of logic and critical thinking realize that what you're stating is relative to the perception of the individual; i.e. therefore it is subjective.

PLATINUM: Dude, take your relativism with you somewhere else. You have common sense, right? Use it.

KNYTE: 'Common sense' can be quite relative; what is 'common' to you may not be 'common' to me, depending on social, economic and cultural factors. Anyway, your post doesn't change the facts of what I said.

PLATINUM: I don't think you got my point: It does not matter what you deem subjective. This is Karter's game; they set the rules. When Karter says don't be like this and that, that's exactly what it means in their terms. If you cannot, for whatever reason, fattom what they mean by "don't be like this" then that is solely your own problem. Listing every single type of behavior that falls under such a category (assuming you have no thought of your own) is extremely impractical, unless you're willing to read, I don't know, 10000000 pages of behavioral descriptions.

Scientific discourse has moved away from relativism a long time ago. Read Kant and his likes if you're interested. Relativism today is what you use when you've ran out of decent arguements. I'm pretty sure no one would have any issues understanding what is, and what is not acceptable behavior. In case that is not clear to a person for whatever reason, then said person should research, in this case, american or western behavior.

I do not need a babysit guide to understand a sign that says "do not sit here". Using your logic I could simply say "hey, sitting is subjective, my parents taught me that sitting is a term that only accounts for grown-ups, we children have another term, so that must mean I can sit here". This type of fallacy is exactly what relativism brings with itself, and this is literally the point of view that you're arguing for. Obviously this does not strike you as completely absurd, so go figure why you're still using such a train of thought. This is known as subjectivist fallacy. Feel free to google it. I'm surprised to see a person that claims to have knowledge of certain things to apply fallacy to angle an arguement towards the unreasonable.


Edited 6/19/2017 16:49:51
Something that Tabby would be interested in: 6/19/2017 16:40:14

Level 60

MARKUS: The problem is that The Announcer introduced a vast subjective opinion into what was a clear cut issue. Even worse is that it was to clarify what should have been a very clear cut issue. Instead The Announcer made it a vastly more complicated.

Calling for reports was bad.

Now it is bad if you do it in a way that makes you a dick.

Karter determines who is a dick but gives no clarification on what being a dick means.

When you are the creator of the subjective opinion you need to have a clear vision of it's scope.

You can't lump just western society into this either as these discussion gatherings encompass other region such as EU as well. Where behavioral norms are vastly different then many regions of the US. Even from state to state in the US behavior patterns change drastically. (Have you ever driven in California?)

Also you analogy was horrid. "do not sit here" Is vastly different then "do not sit here if you are a dick" which is the appropriate analogy.

KNYTE: Thanks bud. Honestly I don't have the energy right now to get into yet another discussion here with someone who is so narrow-minded and stuck on their own opinion that they can't see the main issue at hand here; which is report calling was thought to be and should continue to be a punishable offense.

Nothing is gained from calling for reports on someone regardless of whether or not that player is deserving of a report; in the end, it's still a form of harassment/'witchhunting'/what have you. The reason being, one report is enough to trigger the system and flag the reported player's account. There is no justifiable excuse to ever call for multiple reports in-game on someone, ever.

Just because now this Announcer says "it's OK to report call.... but just do it in a nice way! teehee!", doesn't mean it isn't still a form of harassment, period.

My point with this particular post on what he said being subjective, is that stating "don't be a dick about it" -- or in another form saying "call for reports, but in a nice way" -- is empirically, subjective.

What I may think is 'a nice way'of saying something to you, may not be interpreted by you as 'being nice' at all, due to what I said before -- cultural values, social influences, upbringing, etc. He can argue that it's not subjective with a whole 1000 page thesis for all I care; he's still wrong on that aspect.

PLATINUM: I never said anything against either of your points. I simply pointed out the mistake of using relativism to justify it. In fact, I struggle to understand why you need to use relativism instead of just saying "Rito, this isn't clear, could you list specific scenarios". Why exactly did you construct your arguement using a well-known type of fallacy?

Look dude/girl, relativism is not something to be taken lightly. There is a reason why it's frowned upon, and in a lot of cases, is considered erraneous. Relativism in itself is of a vague and diffuse character - it does not bear any fruits when abused, which it is, 99% of the time. If you want to contruct good, well-thought-out arguements, you apply clear and concise examples (which you did at the start of your reply here). You do not go down the relativist trap and kill off any counter arguement by saying it is all relative. If all discourses did that, we'd get nowhere, and that is why it is fallacy. In the end, even if you provide good examples, the fact that you used relativism, what you did was literally reserve yourself from any criticism and thereby halting and ending the entire discussion. The guy replying to you, then, could simply say "ah well, opinions are all relative, so I disagree with you - why do we even have rules since they're all subjective anyway?". So, if you want to be taken seriously, stop using fallacy. It's as simply as that.

If it is STILL not clear to you, then that's alright. You can keep using relativism, but beware that by doing so, you're only really limiting yourself.

And Markus, I think you misunderstood me. You might rightfully claim that "being a dick" is a vague description. That's not what I was arguing against. I was arguing against someone who used relativism to justify it as such. You don't need relativism to say that "hey, this isn't clear cut - fix it".

That said, I do think at this point it's just nitpicking. You all have an idea what being a dick means (or do I perhaps assume too much?). I can think of two pretty common scenarios:

1. Calling for false reports aimed at a person who hasn't broken the rules.

2. Calling for reports by spamming and/or cursing.

KNYTE: Setting aside all your other diatribe on relativism, et al -- you're still wrong and we're not just 'nitpicking'.

"Calling for false reports aimed at a person who hasn't broken the rules." ...except if the reporter truly feels/believes they are justified in reporting the reportee. Sure, it's a false flag/report to Karter, but the very real consequences in-game is that report calling, any report calling, is harassment/griefing, and negatively impacts the reported player.

Just because you/Karter knows the report is false, doesn't mean that you can't abuse report calling in a way that A. doesn't tip off Karter you're 'being a dick' (spamming/cursing/harassing further) and B. might look like a 'genuine' report call ingame (e.g. someone is having a bad game with a teammate who's died five times on purpose in the first two minutes: "omg report player X for trolling").

So yes, while we're pushing back on The Announcer for being obtuse on giving a subjective explanation on 'how to properly report call', the simple fact is that report calling itself is 'being a dick', regardless of the circumstances that brought about the report call to begin with. It is harassment and toxic and should be punished.

PLATINUM: "...except if the reporter truly feels/believes they are justified in reporting the reportee. Sure, it's a false flag/report to Karter, but the very real consequences in-game is that report calling, any report calling, is harassment/griefing, and negatively impacts the reported player."

You can literally break down any set of rules in the EXACT same way, rendering all of them meaningless. As I said bud, relativism can be applied to anything and everything. It doesn't make it truth or even worth discussing.

Everything is subjective. Why are we even having this discussion?

KNYTE: We are not; you are.

Of course not everything is subjective/relative.

An idea is objective when it doesn’t matter who’s talking. When it expresses a reality without modifying it.

An idea is subjective when it belongs to us, when it is shaped by our way of thinking, our values or even our mood.

If you’re sad, you’ll see a half-empty glass. If you’re happy, you’ll see a half-full glass. I will tell you the glass contains 50ml of wine.

Saying 'don't be a dick' without any context is very clearly however, subjective, and relative to the individual that phrase is aimed at. Now, if he had said "We don't want you to say _, that is 'being a dick', so 'don't be a dick'", then it wouldn't be subjective, due to being given specificity on what being a dick is, so then everyone can not be one.

What you can do to help:

1) Who is right? Knyte/Markus or Platinum?

2) At which point did you initially stop reading this?

3) On a scale of -100 to 10, how much did this interest you?
Something that Tabby would be interested in: 6/19/2017 16:42:44

Belgian Gentleman
Level 57
not to be rude but...

3) -100
Something that Tabby would be interested in: 6/19/2017 16:53:04

Dexterous Strategist
Level 27
Something that Tabby would be interested in: 6/19/2017 17:07:40

ZaZa The 🐧
Level 55
-50, because i actually read all of this...
Something that Tabby would be interested in: 6/19/2017 21:34:39

Level 62
The life of cats.

@semice summarise the first two posts.
Something that Tabby would be interested in: 6/19/2017 22:03:47

Level 55

I got you covert, Semice. knyte is basically saying that it's subjective, and it varies quite a bit from fellow to fellow what "being a dick" is, while Platinon agrees it's subjective but refuses to call it "relative from fellow to fellow", as he thinks (for some grounds) that everything will be thought as relative and nothing will be absolute and there will be no basis or axioms and so all arguments will fall apart...just a doomsday guy.
Something that Tabby would be interested in: 6/19/2017 23:52:48

Level 54
What is this cancer?
Something that Tabby would be interested in: 6/19/2017 23:56:52

Dexterous Strategist
Level 27
>repeating old fashioned meme
>thinks he's the papa here

Something that Tabby would be interested in: 6/20/2017 01:19:20

Level 61
Why am I cancer?
Something that Tabby would be interested in: 6/20/2017 01:30:33

Cata Cauda
Level 59
Bio: I'm better then you.
Something that Tabby would be interested in: 6/20/2017 02:10:54

Dexterous Strategist
Level 27
Something that Tabby would be interested in: 6/20/2017 04:21:54

MightySpeck (a Koala) 
Level 59
What is this cancer?

Actually made me laugh.
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