|> Well, I have to split the Netherlands in two, because I've split up Belgium in two too. And I want the border to be somewhat realistic, because the Belgian division is the two language zones.

Meh, that's a pretty silly reason if you ask me; you're not splitting Luxemburg in two, so why split the Netherlands in two? Size-wise, I think Luxemburg in one piece, and Belgium in two, pretty much suggests (by extrapolation based on size) chopping up the Netherlands in three parts. Now, I propose to *not* necessarily go for a 4-4-4 division (see comments above, it's problematic).

How about Noord-Holland, Zuid-Holland and Utrecht ("Randstad"), Zeeland, Noord-Brabant and Limburg (maybe "Onder de rivieren"?) and all the rest together (<flamebait>"Platteland" anyone?</flamebait> ;) ). I don't have your exact numbers of territories at hand, but I expect that to be relatively balanced, right? If you could check your numbers, maybe the balance would benefit from moving Gelderland to the second group (which would then need another name of course).

Note, this is not an attempt to make the most balanced division possible; it's an attempt to make a relatively balanced division based on generally-known regions. Should balance be your primary concern, let me know; if you have a list of the number of territories per province (it's a hard condition for the "third level bonuses" to be based on provinces; all second level bonuses are entirely within one third level bonus, right?) I'll translate it into an optimization problem and let my computer simply calculate the most balanced division.

I mean, although the Netherlands cover more land, Belgium has more communes. Belgium has 589, the Netherlands only 421. So, because I can't split Belgium in three, the Netherlands should be cut in two too.
Here's a list of the communes, just type ctrl+f and than any province name, you get how many communes/municipalities there are.

Moros,

My bad, I made the, subconscious, assumption (Google "assumptions are" ;) ) the number of communes (or municipalities or whatever the correct term is) in Belgium would be lower than in the Netherlands. I guess they never did any gemeentelijke herindelingen there?

Anyway, about that list of communes, did you intend to include a link or something; I don't see anything...

Please allow me a few days to answer; my Internet connection is broken so I can only connect intermittently, when I'm not at home.

Moros take a look at the "Big New York" map, personally I think that's the most balanced to currently exist. It's also the main one I host all my 24 player games on. Try and aim for play-ability more than on geographical accuracy when it comes to bonuses and you'll have one hell of a map.

Lol, I forgot to include the link :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_municipalities_of_the_Netherlands

@typhoon

If all I was going for was balance and play-ability, I'd leave all country, region, province and other divisions behind me and just group every 10 territories into a bonus. Or even further, I'd leave behind the commune borders, and just divide the whole Benelux into 3199 perfect squares, and make those with 3×3 territory square bonuses, all worth the 5 armies per turn. If I was going for balance only, I would simply make a copy of matma's battlefield, which is maybe even more balanced than NY big.

I want two things, first I want my map to be geologically and politically accurate, and after that the balance. It'd be boring to group every 10 territories and make them a bonus. I want to work around the weird provinces, the illogical borders and connections and bridges over rivers that don't seem to make any sense. I bet I can even make a map of a fictional country with 100 municipalities, grouped in 1 province with 99 municipalities, and the other one with only 1 of them. In that case, I'd try to find further divisions for that large province, and that's exactly what I'm doing now with the Benelux map. I'm looking for ways to divide provinces with a lot of territories, such as Zuid-Holland and Luik. And I'm adding ports and airports to keep the game interesting after 10 times of playing. I'm making Flevoland worth almost nothing to avoid all people starting there, maybe by also making the bonuses around Flevoland relatively low.

The map that's both balanced and realistic doesn't exist, but I try to do both, instead of simply going to one side of the spectrum, and doing nothing with the rest. I hope I made my point and reasons understandable for you.

Sorry if you took my comment the wrong way Moros. I am not saying you should modify any of the crazy and senseless borders that you have put massive time and effort into. I am simply saying there's a lot of maps out there that are very accurate but hard to follow/play and have very unbalanced bonuses. I am not suggesting you making it "Perfectly Balanced" either. It will take a lot of testing in order for you to reach that point. Personally I am currently attempting to make a map of my own (USSR small, then USSR big afterwards) and damn, is it not an easy task putting those two together.

What I meant was you should go with the: COROP-areas of the Netherlands, the arrondissementen of Belgium, and the cantons of Luxembourg. For bonuses instead of using just the provinces.

Sorry I did not fully explain my post and if it came out rude.

Moros, thanks for the info, when I get home I'll see what I can whip up.

On a semi-related note, how about determining the value of bonuses by population size? ;)

@Typhoon

Sorry that I overreacted, I thought you wanted me to put every 10 or 5 territories in a bonus, and I would never do that.
And I'm now already making it with the divisions you mentioned, but rather with the provinces and districts too, but that as one extra layer. That'd be a super-bonus, then the regions a super-super-bonus, and the countries a super-super-super bonus :)

@RvW
I'm afraid I can't do that, because if I do that, everyone will start in the Brussels Capital Region, 19 municipalities with 1.142.026 residents :) Or in Amsterdam, a single commune with 783.364 of them :) And nobody in Schiermonnikoog, 937 residents!

Heh, if everything was worth 5/10 that'd be one boring map :P.

Okay, so you want to divide the Netherlands into two.

Then I think my west-east proposal is pretty good: it's balanced, it has no degrading names, ;) , and in fact it is the border between the Western and Frisian dialects and the Eastern and Southern dialects.
It's also, roughly, the border between hasty zeal (West) and trusty dedication (East).

Ok, with your division, the regions will be like this:

(Sorry for the lame quality, I made it myself with ms paint by putting three images together)

It is notable that the Netherlands division has a longer border.

Okay, I'm sorry I have to say this, but the map release will be delayed by 1 week. I now have no time to finish it, at least not this week. The reason I don't have time is that I deliver leaflets every week, and at the end of the year we go to all of the houses we deliver to, and hand them over a special card and good wishes, and hopefully get a tip for one year of work. Last year I made €85,- with it, and this year I'm going again. Because I have 274 addresses, it takes me 4 days. And because of other things I have to do (e.g. eating, sleeping, talking with my family, binding 1000 sparklers together and set them off at once like I did last year :D), I'm afraid I just don't have enough time to make it completely finished on the 31st of December, as I promised.
So here's the new plan, I'll try the best I can to get this map done before or at the 7th of January.

>:( *start whiny voice* bad Moros, your blacklisted from stuff cause you cant make the deadline you said you were hoping to Finnish by *end whiny voice*
In all seriousness I love your maps and would rather you take your time.
Set a deadline if you need the motivation, but I think most here understand that you cant always make the deadline.
i cant wait to play on it when it's finished, I got to visit Holland 2 years ago, BEST FOOD EVER. *jealous*

Personally, I feel no stress over the map being made, even if I was highly interested in it.. get it done when you get a chance..

*but your excuse is lame.. your post states
"The reason I don't have time is that I deliver leaflets every week, and at the end of the year we go to all of the houses we deliver to"
this means this was a foreseen event.. like saying you'd show up on valentines day then saying sorry, I spend the day with my GF every year on valentines day.. shouldn't make deadlines that cannot be met due to foreseen events*

that being said, good luck on the tips, and have fun over new years, can't wait to see it finished :)

I forgot it because it's only once a year, but stupid action, I know.

Hi Moros,

Well, I did some juggling with the provinces and it turns out there are some partitions which work out quite nicely. I actually even found a couple which are perfectly balanced, but unfortunately, none of those consisted of two contiguous groups (if Gelderland and Noord-Brabant are in one group then Limburg should not be in the other). When I manually searched my list for suitable candidates these groupings looked promising:

NB NH Ze ZH ( 1)
Ge Li NB Ov Ut ( 2)
Li NB Ut Ze ZH ( 2)
Dr Fl Ge Li NB Ov Ze ( 3)
Dr Ge Li NB Ov Ze ( 3)
Dr Ge Gr Li NB Ov ( 7)
Ge Li NB Ov Ut Ze (11)

The number in brackets is how far from optimal (209 vs 209) each group is; the "1" at the end of the first line means it's 208 vs 210.

I did notice my program somehow manages to mess up; in a few cases the value it reports is one higher or lower than it should be...!? I have no idea how that's possible (and I don't have time to debug right now). If it makes errors I can't explain, I obviously can't promise it's perfect. That means it may contain more errors and might have missed an even better grouping. Then again, these are "good enough", right?

If you intend to update this map (or other maps with super-bonuses) at least semi-regularly, let me know and I'll try to get my program debugged and easily configurable for different maps.

Hope this helps,
Rob


ps. @DagenDaDragon: Seriously, you like Dutch food...!? That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that. :o

when will this map come out?? This will be a great map!

@RvW

Hmmm...
My favor goes to the GeLiNBOvUt grouping, but with Drenthe added. It'll be slightly less balanced, but that's 12 territories on 410, so that won't be that bad. I'm adding Drenthe because then all of the provinces have something in common: non of them border water! Okay, Noord-Brabant does a bit in the Biesbosch but you get the idea. Then I can name those "Binnenland" and the other group something that says that they border see (can't think of something now, maybe "Zeeland"?).

@Phililpianus
Read the previous posts please.

Glad I could be of a little service. :)

How about "Kust" / "Coast"; that also takes care of Noord-Brabant, with or without Biesbosch, I'd never consider it to have a coast.

Alternatively, you could go with "Above sea level" and "Below sea level". According to [this picture](http://www.floodsite.net/juniorfloodsite/images/content/onderzeeniveau.png), that's actually reasonably accurate. And it's both a "natural" and a "typically Dutch" division.

I might be able to check back tomorrow morning, but if you don't see any posts by me anymore, expect me back in a week or so.