the 2nd army was the only thing stopping hitler from success !! ur wrong

^ that's more inbred than Charles II

^

v

Edited 7/10/2016 21:50:05

Is this when Hitler personally intervened from the battle plans for Barbarossa and pulled troops from army group center to the south instead of pushing on Moscow? You are probably right but Germany still could have won had they brought along a few coats

EDIT: or the Japanese had attacked the Siberian armies, focusing their forces on Russia and quietly taking the Dutch East Indies.

Edited 7/11/2016 02:28:35

Coats don't defend your vehicles and horses against the muddy season, nor you from Russian steel, lead and gunpowder.

And yes, this is when Hitler delayed the advance on Moscow a month.

At this point in the war Russian tanks were woefully out classed by German designs. Russia even had to stop production of war materials to move whole factories (workforce and all) from the heavily industrialized, overrun eastern Europe to Siberia.

Edited 7/11/2016 02:27:21

You do realize that the Germans had serious issues penetrating T-34 and KV armor right? And still, it wasn't the winter that stopped the Germans at Moskva, it was most definitely the Red Army, considering the Germans did assault their lines and were still repelled.

I think you are overestimating the USSR's preparedness at the onset of the war. Their tank army largely consisted of BT-7s, T-40s, and T-26s. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II)


While it was the Red Army that stopped them at Moscow, a number of things could have changed the course of the battle. It was the Siberian divisions brought over from Eastern Russia that tipped the balanced and allowed the USSR to counterattack. If Japan had at least confronted these divisions then the USSR counterattack would have failed.

Additionally, as I have stated before, if the Germans had been prepared for the winter then they would have easily beaten back the Soviet counter offensive as both sides have roughly the same number of men and tanks (after the Siberian divisions were taken into account).

Edited 7/11/2016 02:50:11

you have so much in common then.

It was the Siberian divisions brought over from Eastern Russia that tipped the balanced and allowed the USSR to counterattack

Which the Germans couldn't do anything about

if the Germans had been prepared for the winter then they would have easily beaten back the Soviet counter offensive as both sides have roughly the same number of men and tanks (after the Siberian divisions were taken into account).

One, this has the offensive taking place one month earlier, not extra preparation earlier on (which could still prove a failure, as the main problem of the Germans not being able to keep up in production and manpower will still be there), two, the winter gear the Germans had would be more suited to Central European and not Russian winter conditions, and three, the Germans still have the problem of the entire Soviet Army which isn't worse off than in otl.

Define ''American'', and yes they would be ''American''

The Japanese should have confronted the over 18 divisions, 1,700 tanks, and over 1,500 aircraft from Siberia and the Far East before they were moved to Moscow. The Germans fought exceptionally well for how under prepared they were.

On November 30th, Bock wrote in his journal that the temperature reached -49 degrees F. More than 130,000 cases of frostbite were reported among German soldiers over the winter. Only a third of German armored vehicles were operational by late October and it took several hours to heat them up enough to start. Added to this that Infantry Divisions were at 1/3 to 1/2 combat strength and it is easy to say that had the Germans been better prepared they would have at least held their ground during the winter.


One, this has the offensive taking place one month earlier, not extra preparation earlier on (which could still prove a failure, as the main problem of the Germans not being able to keep up in production and manpower will still be there), two, the winter gear the Germans had would be more suited to Central European and not Russian winter conditions, and three, the Germans still have the problem of the entire Soviet Army which isn't worse off than in otl.

If Hitler wouldn't have invaded Yugoslavia from 8-15 April 1941 then Germany would have had plenty of resources, time, manpower, and planning for the invasion of the USSR. As a matter of fact, they may have even been able to attack the USSR as much as six weeks earlier making the capture of Moscow more likely.

EDIT: This means that the Germans woudl have beaten rasputitsa and would not have suffered nearly as many supply problems.

Edited 7/11/2016 03:48:06

^

th dirty sno gremlins fot on our said thats wai we won duh

*olbigatory spicy russian memes*

The Japanese should have confronted the over 18 divisions, 1,700 tanks, and over 1,500 aircraft from Siberia and the Far East before they were moved to Moscow.

They already tried to invade Mongolia but were beaten, and the Nazi-Soviet pact had made them orient foreign policy totally to a southern expansionist route.

On November 30th, Bock wrote in his journal that the temperature reached -49 degrees F. More than 130,000 cases of frostbite were reported among German soldiers over the winter. Only a third of German armored vehicles were operational by late October and it took several hours to heat them up enough to start. Added to this that Infantry Divisions were at 1/3 to 1/2 combat strength and it is easy to say that had the Germans been better prepared they would have at least held their ground during the winter.

German equipment would still be not made to deal with conditions at the front, and there would still be losses from it.

If Hitler wouldn't have invaded Yugoslavia from 8-15 April 1941 then Germany would have had plenty of resources, time, manpower, and planning for the invasion of the USSR. As a matter of fact, they may have even been able to attack the USSR as much as six weeks earlier making the capture of Moscow more likely.

So Yugoslavia goes to being Ally-Oriented, Germany doesn't invade Greece and the Italians are stuck with a Greece that is getting British troops that are also on their way to Beograd?

And so what if it's six weeks later? It was the Russian Army that stopped the Germans, not the winter.

let blame ITALY for being a useless ally

check ur privilege

From: OxTheAutist
(from Smedley's deleted thread I found in my cache)

ooooh I'm so butthurt

and this guy's accent is so annoying; it's an English stuck up posh anglo white trash prick dirty sewer "gardy-loo" shitty disgusting snobby southern non-relating, ignorant, conservative unionist rich fucker; I hate his guts already and I wish I could take drag his family into the north sea, shove their face in our oil, and wait for them to get poisoned to the point of no return.