Why shouldn't TLW be punished for the actions of one of their members?

You sanction organizations for failing to control their members, to create some sort of incentive for them to punish their members internally. If TLW doesn't have the resources to create some sort of deterrent to Semice's behavior, then it makes no sense to punish TLW.

If TLW had some sort of involvement in the hijack, then there'd be an independent reason to punish TLW- but since that wasn't the case, it makes no sense to punish TLW without having some intent of causing TLW to punish Semice (or anyone who attempts the same thing) in turn.

So, you'r not going to punish him simply because he's a good player?

Not at all. I'm actively exploring the options; the issue's just that I don't think we have any tool to actually punish Semice.

Kicking him out of Clan League won't be a punishment because he's in there to benefit TLW and render TLW competitively viable. Kicking him out of the clan? He's been one of the few people that actually contribute to its growth and development, not sure how that'd be punishing him. Kicking him from coin games? Yeah, that could work, but that's on Fizzer's end, not the community's.

As soon as I find some sort of action I can take that would prevent this behavior on Semice's part, I'll take it. I've been on the other side of this, scrambling to get CORP running again after Semice hijacked it as The Lone Wolf, and obviously I don't want hijacking to be a common part of the Warlight experience.

TLW doesn't punish long-time members

Well, if our members do something that active hurts the community, need a deterrent to keep them from doing it again, and if we're able to actually provide that deterrent, then that's not going to be the case anymore.

For Semice, the third part is the stumbling block. Right now his punishment is that he'll get kicked out of TLW if he's involved in a hijack, but there's nothing viable beyond that to my knowledge.

We also don't generally kick people

Except for about 50 people in the past month, all for inactivity.


As far as community controversy, the policy of current clan management is to always stand by clan members and assume they're in the right, to guarantee every one of our members a fair defense in the court of community opinion. Obviously, if they do something that doesn't mesh with the clan, we'll independently punish them or remove them, but we're not as willing to bow to random community pressure and worry about reputation as much as other RP clans- I strongly believe TLW provides enough of a benefit to its members, anyway, and will continue to grow regardless of how much random members of the community like us.

basically has become a popular dictator.

Also, lowkey, I plan on restoring democracy at some point not too far in the future and I'm focusing on rebuilding the clan's management infrastructure (i.e., getting a good number of people to step up and get invested in both day-to-day operations and growth) so we can pull off a strong transition to hijack-free non-dictatorial rule. Don't plan on remaining dictator forever. :)

Edited 5/19/2016 03:56:30

the leaders that were duped

Here's your problem, Colonel. You weren't "duped"; you had some stupid expectations about your own degree of control when someone else gets Manager Rights.

Don't transfer Manager Rights to someone if you're not comfortable with them taking yours away. There's no "different scenarios" as far as transferring MR goes- you're transferring control over the clan, plain and simple. As far as MR transfer goes, in the realm of WL policy, there's no difference between even a peaceful transition of power and what Semice did- all it is one person giving another MR and with it full control over the clan.

That's what you did. And now you're just mad because Semice behaved in a way that you weren't comfortable with. Too bad you relinquished any control you had the moment you gave him MR.

So, what your saying is that you don't give a fuck what the community thinks and will keep him because he's a good player?

Well ok then. My respect level for you is rapidly falling.

Edited 5/19/2016 04:04:43

Yep. If you're in the Wolves, I'm not going to remove you just because Colonel and some random player in MSF think I should. If you're hurting the community (and ultimately hurting the Wolves), sure, I'll do what I can- although frankly there aren't any real tools for that.

The Wolves care about the Wolves. I strongly believe that organizations function much, much more effectively when every member can expect to have their support when they need it. Like I said, if you're a Wolf and you're in trouble, we're there for you.

Edited 5/19/2016 04:06:40

yes it stinks..... he's a good player so we don't care that he is the biggest prick in Warlight.
TLW should be ashamed of themselves

"If you're hurting the community"


What the actual fuck, he did hurt the community. And it's not just two player who are angry. He destroyed a whole clan remember? Or have you forgotten?

Really? There's people who cheat the ladders, who cheat in games, and here we have Semice- not even in violation of any Warlight policy, just under attack because Colonel gave him MR without apparently understanding what transferring MR does- called the "biggest prick in Warlight."

I don't condone the hijacking. I think it's bad that it happened. And, in no equivocal terms, I think we should take every step we can to prevent future hijackings, especially after what happened to RE.

But no one's brought any effective measures here and are now calling on us to take measures that are not only ineffective but far, far more detrimental to The Lost Wolves than they are to anyone else.

This is exactly why I'm not going to bend over backwards just to increase forum "reputation."

Either propose some viable solutions- and I'll take action, because frankly I've only been stalled by the lack of options- or understand that, just like the Poon Squad isn't going to kick out QueefBalls when people attack him on the forum, we're not going to randomly take harmful actions to please randos on the forum.

@madking:

Looks like you missed the second part of the sentence: sure, I'll do what I can. If there are no viable options, then my hands are tied as much as yours are.

Give me viable routes and I'll take them. I hate hijackings as much as the next guy.

Right now I've:

- stripped Semice of title privileges within the clan (his title right now is literally "NO MORE HIJACKS")

- issued him an ultimatum- he'll be removed if this happens again and can be linked to him

- suspended him from any clan-wide leadership positions

And this is before any conclusive evidence of Semice's responsibility. I'm already taking extreme measures while the community forms its premature conclusions.

Again, this is why a good clan manager doesn't give a damn about forum reputation and instead bases their decisions on what benefits the clan + the greater community.

Edited 5/19/2016 04:20:44

Ah, so you have punished him. I was under the impression you did not give a shit if one of your members destroyed a clan.


Now lets look at the rest of your argument you claim that because some ladder cheats and such go unpunished that it's justifiable not to punish semice. However, cheating on a ladder is hardly is hardly comparable to ruining warlight for a large group of people.

And comparing queef balls to this is once again a poor comparison since his actions do simply not compare to this.

"This is exactly why I'm not going to bend over backwards just to increase forum "reputation.""

Who said anything about that? All i said was that you appear to be willing to let this slide and that i found that disgusting.

All in all it would help to no end if semice simply publicly apologized instead of cowering behind you.

Ah, so you have punished him. I was under the impression you did not give a shit if one of your members destroyed a clan.

Exact opposite. I've been on the receiving end of a hijack before. Multiple times. Not fun, although I'd still blame a failure of leadership (CORP has some pretty dysfunctional management) more than the hijackers. That's why I've taken measures before we've even found out who was responsible for the hijack.

The measures I mentioned are all temporary pending further evidence. If Semice is definitively linked to the hijack, then obviously we'll discuss more permanent sanctions in the Council.

semice simply publicly apologized instead of cowering behind you.

Semice currently denies that he was responsible for the hijacking (there's been statements both ways), so I honestly don't know what's up and I hope there's some conclusive information we can get from Fizzer.

More importantly, though, I really hope RE's Manager Rights get restored soon, or we're looking about about 40-50 active players trapped in a dead clan.

Edited 5/19/2016 04:40:57

There's no actual evidence that semice did it atm, and He hasn't admitted doing so in private clan forums, as such we're holding this situation as innocent until guilty. However, there is general consensus that he probably did it, and as such we have taken whatever action that seems viable. I mean we have publicly said we don't approve of such actions, so we are not clearly just letting this slide.

Also, cheating on the ladder does ruin it for the approx 350 people on the ladder, if its the 1v1 ladder(which is the most common ladder for both cheating and people), which is a much larger group than RE. As such, it could be viewed as comparable.

Might i point out that people who cheat on the ladder do not take down a community?

Valid point, but for some people ladders are much more important than clans, especially those in ladders, and not clans. I'm arguing that they should be seen as somewhat comparable situations, whereas you claim they are not comparable, which I view as entirely false. However, despite a lack of confirmed guilt, semice is getting bashed, beaten, and if any one actually knew where he lived, probably death threats, as well as people claiming that TLW should do something counterproductive acts, where as in a ladder cheat scenario, even when confirmed, the most is asked is for the person to remove one account from the ladder, nothing more, nothing less(usually)

Fair point. But the take-down-the-community part didn't occur as a direct consequence of the hijackers' actions, either, rather as a result of Fizzer's intervention.

I get that Fizzer intervened- makes sense to keep the community running and happy- but his specific method (essentially freezing any management activity until the inactive original owner comes back and gets MR again) makes no sense to me and seems to have done much more harm than good, killing the chance of a quick recovery.

thats just so wrong Japan.... most people are blissfully unaware if someone cheats on the ladder. perhaps the top two or three might be affected, but to compare that with hijacking a clan? *smh*

Also..... you're giving Semice one chance and he's out if he does it again? Ummm what was said when you first accepted him into the clan knowing his past? No ultimatum then? i'm sure no clan would seriously have accepted him without one

Again, fizzar merely did what appeared sen sable. The blame ultimately on the hijacker.


And i will point out that most people who cheat on the ladder generally apologize and do not try and skapegoat fizzar when they hijack a clan.

Ummm what was said when you first accepted him into the clan knowing his past?

He's been in the clan much longer than I have. He's one of the original Wolves and has led the clan before.

Again, fizzar merely did what appeared sen sable. The blame ultimately on the hijacker.

Semice isn't scapegoating Fizzer here. I just think Fizzer unfortunately turned a bad situation into a terrible one. Whoever hijacked the clan had no way of knowing Fizzer would intervene- he hasn't before, especially not in the way he did- and take away any hope of the clan being quickly returned to Colonel/Recoil.

Edited 5/19/2016 05:02:56

Semice has been in the clan longer than knyte, and was in before knyte joined and took over. Also, He was in fact in charge of TLW for a few weeks at one point.

Way to make a topic uninteresting. 100 posts in like 1 day.

Conclusion1: be a good player and you can do what you want

Conclusion2: clans claiming to be fair without actually dealing with stuff like that are hypocrites and can't be taken seriously.

Conclusion1: be a good player and you can do what you want

Be really useful to any organization and you'll have to do more shit to get kicked out. Not unique to the Wolves. And it's not just because he's the best player in the clan and has single-handedly taken on the responsibility of developing the clan's players.

Moreover, Semice has been sanctioned by the Wolves even before his involvement's been established, and we're currently discussing more permanent sanctions should any conclusive evidence arise.

Not sure why we're getting shit on here.

Edited 5/19/2016 05:22:36

emice currently denies that he was responsible for the hijacking (there's been statements both ways), so I honestly don't know what's up and I hope there's some conclusive information we can get from Fizzer.

and

There's no actual evidence that semice did it atm, and He hasn't admitted doing so in private clan forums, as such we're holding this situation as innocent until guilty.

"OH CRAP FIZZER SUSPENDED THE ALT NUUUUUUUUUU WTF I FORGOT TO GIVE MR TO MYSELF :(" -Semice

Seriously we are never 100% sure of what happened, but this statement above leads me to think Semice has something to do with this hijacking.

Under mine? There was only Achilles. In any case, I had no control over who had MR- that fell entirely to Kazuki. That's exactly why I left CORP to run Optimum and now TLW- here my leadership is not compromised by people who have much more power than they should.

And still under your leadership, Achilles hijacked the clan, if your management is as good as it sounds, you could have removed his MR way before as we both knew how dangerous Achilles could be. But I suppose it was an obvious case of "failure of leadership" and you were the one main responsible of this, admit it or not, more than the hijacker himself (according to your own opinion on this since you minimize Semice hijacking and cast the blame mainly on the managers).

And this is very hypocrite from you about Kazuki as he never disagreed anything we did, he was very permissive and I am sure that if you wanted to remove MR to his friend Achilles, he would have agreed and understood the point of this. This could have prevented this hijacking, but still you did nothing at all.

in charge of The Lost Wolves, and personally I think it's a responsibility of clan management to always side with your members when they need you to

And here again despite many points proving Semice is behind it, you do not judge necessary to take direct actions against him (clan banning at the very least), you are criticizing people that lost their clans, without even knowing really how it really happened, whereas you are keeping a potential hijacker in your clan. And you finally minimize his wrongdoings, because you are biased in that matter obviously: As you said earlier you defend the Wolves as you are "in charge" of this clan, that's perfectly understandable, but you should avoid posting here, since it is obvious you have no objectivity at all here.