Don't misquote me dude. Read what I said:

I know for a fact women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion. I don't know if there are any studies on neural effects of giving up a child for adoption.

I only claimed to know the research that women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion. I told you I didn't know of the research studies linking adoption and mental health. You were very quick to declare "anti-abortion propaganda". I never claimed to know via evidence that adoption causes less mental health effects for women. I didn't lie or misrepresent. I only told you what I know and I provided the evidence for that.

Edited 2/13/2016 02:11:38

WCT Quote from Off-Topic Thread: https://www.warlight.net/Forum/134083-christians-support-gay-marriage?Offset=180

"It's the argument that matters, not the source of the argument."

The research statistics are not debatable. You could argue against the methodology of the research papers, but you cannot dismiss the argument presented simply due to the nature of the publisher of the article.


Logical Argument Provided By - WCT

Don't misquote me dude. Read what I said:

I know for a fact women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion. I don't know if there are any studies on neural effects of giving up a child for adoption.

I only claimed to know the research that women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion.

Okay, I agree I did not read your post correctly, and left out an important part of the initial quote. However, I was referring to this, with my earlier comment included for full context:

If you were to compare the two, I guarantee you'd find that giving up a fully developed child is more traumatic than having an abortion. Unfortunately, I don't have anything to back that up other than common sense, and I'm not interested enough in the point to try to google it. I think it should be pretty damn obvious, IMO.

Eh its not obvious because I would reason its not true.

At the most they're equally traumatic.

There you claimed abortion and adoption are equally traumatic. That's the point I'm skeptical about, not whether having an abortion is associated with increased rate of suicide compared to *any* woman giving birth. Your links do not support the 'equally traumatic' claim.

The research statistics are not debatable. You could argue against the methodology of the research papers, but you cannot dismiss the argument presented simply due to the nature of the publisher of the article.

Red herring provided by Jai. That's not the point I'm skeptical of.

exept he didn't ask you for "an argument", he asked for reliable source to support your initial argument.

Anyway, this isn't even relevent Jai. Abortions are not the cause for suicide. Mental health is the cause for suicide. Getting an abortion is extremely hard on the psyche, and society should be supportive rather than put shame on these women, wich only make it harder for them and probably is one of the cause that leads to suicides.

There you claimed abortion and adoption are equally traumatic. That's the point I'm skeptical about

Ah okay so you referenced the wrong quote.

Note that I said "I would reason its not true". I don't have any evidence of equally traumatic...but at the same time note that I don't know of any evidence suggesting that giving a child up for adoption results in quantifiable increases in depression and suicide (maybe you know of a source to point me too).

The research statistics are not debatable. You could argue against the methodology of the research papers, but you cannot dismiss the argument presented simply due to the nature of the publisher of the article.

This wasn't for you. This was for Feline Juggernaut.

he asked for reliable source to support your initial argument

To be fair I provided a list of links for the point I thought he was referring to, which was abortions cause increases in suicide and depression in mothers. Also "reliability" is relativistic and subjective, especially when the actual article themselves reference 3rd party research.

Edited 2/13/2016 02:34:51

suicide is also pretty high among gays, does it mean that homosexuality leads to suicide? Or maybe (wild guess) could it be the case that society forcing them to be locked in a closet has something to do with it?

Ah okay so you referenced the wrong quote.

To be more precise, I misunderstood "I know for a fact women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion" to be saying "I know for a fact women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion, compared to after adoption," which is not what you meant. I stopped there and didn't read the next sentence, which I should have.

Note that I said "I would reason its not true".

And then you *claimed* that they are equivalent. That's what I am skeptical of.

I don't have any evidence of equally traumatic...but at the same time note that I don't know of any evidence suggesting that giving a child up for adoption results in quantifiable increases in depression and suicide (maybe you know of a source to point me too).

Then I consider the matter closed for the time being, since I don't have a source handy, and don't really care enough about *my* opinion on it to to bother to look it up. It was only when you *appeared* to be claiming (which was my mistaken mis-reading) that you 'knew for a fact' that 'they are equally traumatic' that my BS detector went berserk. Now that I realize you weren't really claiming that (or at least not 'for a fact'), I don't care anymore. :-)

suicide is also pretty high among gays

I think that's a false comparison. Gays have only recently gotten legal protection for their actions (see obergefell v. hodges), however Roe v. Wade was in 1973 (more than 40 years ago). Gays are a newly protected minority class and therefore are still reeling from social anxiety/criticism of their lifestyle choices. The same can't be said of those who choose to commit abortions.


I don't care anymore. :-)

Hahaha fair enough. I'm good for today too. Same time tomorrow then? I wonder what topic the Conservative will choose for us?

Edited 2/13/2016 02:51:02

This wasn't for you. This was for Feline Juggernaut.

Again, I misinterpreted you. Apologies.

reeling from social anxiety/criticism of their lifestyle choices

As if making something legal make it so that people don't recieve criticism from their lifestyle choices.

Do you really think that women that had an abortion don't face criticism? please this is ridiculous, there wasplenty of criticism of them in this thread alone, and some came from you even. The classic "you shouldn't engage in behaviour that can make you pregnant" (aka its your "fault"), is a blattant example of it.

Edited 2/13/2016 02:56:25

This was my actual quote: "Also if she knew that being pregnant might ruin her career why did she engage in behavior that got her pregnant (assuming it was not due to rape or incest)?"

What you put in quotes (you shouldn't engage in behaviour that can make you pregnant) was not what I said.

My only point was that women, if they are worried about the effects of pregnancy on their materialistic lifestyle, should use contraception (which although not 100% effective, is pretty damn close to being full proof). At some point we have to be responsible for our actions.

As if making something legal make it so that people don't recieve criticism from their lifestyle choices.

That's not my point. What I am saying is that abortion (compared to gay marriage, which you brought up) is a far more accepted cultural norm by society than gay marriage. In fact, most conservatives (as I mentioned before) allow abortion in 3 exceptions - rape, incest, and life - so the idea that there is overwhelming society-wide opposition to abortion that is causing suicide and depression is a big stretch (and also not quantifiable!!).

Also being against abortion is not the same as desiring to put everyone who gets an abortion into prison.

I agree. I don't want them to be in jail. I agree with you on drug incarceration too, but that's a separate issue really.

I think its impossible to overturn Roe v. Wade. What I think is needed is greater regulation of abortion procedures, higher standards for when an abortion is legally allowed (it shouldn't be the first option), and greater funding for adoption systems.

@Jai, re: abortion being an accepted 'cultural norm', I just want to remind you of the reality in some parts of the US (this from only a few months ago): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Springs_Planned_Parenthood_shooting

Or maybe (wild guess) could it be the case that society forcing them to be locked in a closet has something to do with it?

LOL.

Today being gay is pretty much a perk. You literally cannot do anything to a gay person without being demonized.

I remember sadly. Real tragedy.

Considering how controversial abortion was I am least thankful this type of blatant violence was not widespread in the years following Roe v. Wade. That being said its isolated. You won't find many Robert Lewis Dears, just as you won't find many people who say we should legalize abortion in the third and final trimester or that partial birth abortions should be allowed. There are extremists on both sides of the aisle, like on any issue.