For something to be living it must have all 6 characteristics of living things:

- Sense & Respond to change - Yes
- Use energy - Yes
- Grow and Develop - Yes
- Has Cells? - Yes
- Has DNA? - Yes
- Can reproduce? - Here's where the debate is...

The debate is not over if a fetus is living, rather than if it is a human being.
A bacteria is a living organism, a virus can be considered a living organism in some aspects, etc

Because society keeps telling her that she is a murderer, and in some cases she believes it.

But that just isn't true...society isn't telling her that. The Supreme Court told her its legal. Almost all scientists have said that the fetus isn't life, and is therefore not murder. The entire Democratic party tells her its legal, safe, and should be done if she chooses.

The idea that a women who aborted a baby feels as if society is stigmatizing her is absurd, since those who are vigorously against abortion make up maybe 31% of America (according to gallup) and are becoming very very weak. I think around 45 million abortions have been preformed since Roe v. Wade...so the activity of abortion has become almost a cultural norm.

Lastly, if she does feel society is calling her a murderer, why did she go through with it in the first place? Is guilt only a post-abortion feeling, and if so why is that?


http://www.gallup.com/poll/183386/social-ideology-left-catches-right.aspx

Edited 2/13/2016 00:37:05

risking her life in the process

Hitchslap, you do realize that generally, something is more likely to go wrong in an abortion than in a regular pregnancy?

@Jai, regardless, pretty much all women who have abortions generally have to deal with post-abortion depression.

Also if she knew that being pregnant might ruin her career why did she engage in behavior that got her pregnant (assuming it was not due to rape or incest)?

This question already assumes that abortion is/should be illegal.

If abortion is legal, then having unprotected sex would not endanger her career, it would only have the costs and risks associated with the abortion procedure (ignoring STDs). So, it would be more risky than protected sex, but not so risky that she would have to worry about endangering her career.

If abortion is *not* legal, then the question of 'why was she having unprotected sex' is moot, because it is subordinate to the *main* question, which is, 'why isn't abortion legal in the first place?'.

Plus the enormous phsychological burden to bring a child to life only to surrender him to someone else.

I would argue (truthfully), that it is an enormous psychological burden to fertilize an embryo in your body with the DNA of man and then have that fetus destroyed. There are 100s of stories where mothers regret their decision...some even committing suicide.

If you were to compare the two, I guarantee you'd find that giving up a fully developed child is more traumatic than having an abortion. Unfortunately, I don't have anything to back that up other than common sense, and I'm not interested enough in the point to try to google it. I think it should be pretty damn obvious, IMO.

I think it should be pretty damn obvious, IMO.

Eh its not obvious because I would reason its not true.

At the most they're equally traumatic. I know for a fact women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion. I don't know if there are any studies on neural effects of giving up a child for adoption. Usually because adoptions are done willingly and the mother reasons and accepts that she is actually acting in the best interest of the child, I would reason that she wouldn't feel as depressive. Although that's speculative.

@Jai
Doesn't matter if it is legal or not. 31% is still a huge number, and most importantly, they are quite vocal (especially when they are represented by an entire party)
If you think that society and the media doesn't have any part in shaming women into guilt when they have an abortion, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. When people say that if women don't wnat to get pregnant they should not "engage in behaviour that get her pregnant", this is a way o shaming women in my opinion.

@Varys

Hitchslap, you do realize that generally, something is more likely to go wrong in an abortion than in a regular pregnancy?

No i don't "realize" it, because it is not true

@wct Well I'm mostly an idealist. :-) I believe in an absolute right to exist.

For what/whom? Everything? Where do you draw the line? Do plants have an absolute right to exist? If not, why not?

There is no reason humanity should ever restrict or weaken itself in any form. "Human overpopulation" is a symptom of the disease of low human development.

We are naturally limited by the finite space we have available to us and the other life that exists in which to live. We will *always* be limited this way, whether we like it or not, and no matter how developed we are.

There is only so much matter and energy available to life. Blame thermodynamics, not human development.

Even if human overpopulation exists it should not be controlled through abortions..

Why not?

instead getting humans to have less sex naturally is better.

It's not an either/or proposition. Why can't we have many methods of managing population levels?

Preventing too many new humans from appearing is not the same as killing them after they have already appeared.

Again, terminology is important here. Skin cells are also 'human'. You don't seem to have any concern with the absolute right to exist of individual human skin cells, so again, where do you draw the line? I would argue that the appropriate 'line' is that between person and non-person. That's admittedly a difficult line to distinguish, but it's better than all the others I've seen proposed.

Board schools also work for new humans without a family, sometimes actually desirable. There are certain humans who are naturally too rational to be suited to a conformist entity such as a family who should instead just be allowed to learn to be researchers or engineers as they wish. Not every individual is supposed to always live with others...some come from families and do not end up in them..

To properly consider the scenario, you need to look at the quality of life of everyone, not just the exceptional few. I would imagine that 'expected average quality of life' would be in the right neighbourhood of statistical measure.

I think you'll have a hard time showing that board schools are better on average than loving families.

Edited 2/13/2016 01:23:58

I believe in an absolute right to exist.

I'm just curious...are you a vegan/vegetarian?

then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

Edited 2/13/2016 00:59:21

@Lord Varys:

Hitchslap, you do realize that generally, something is more likely to go wrong in an abortion than in a regular pregnancy?

I think you will have a hard time backing up that claim with facts/evidence. Modern abortions are usually out-patient procedures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion

When allowed by local law, abortion in the developed world is one of the safest procedures in medicine.[2][3] Modern methods use medication or surgery for abortions.[4] The drug mifepristone in combination with prostaglandin appears to be as safe and effective as surgery during the first and second trimester of pregnancy.[4][5] Birth control, such as the pill or intrauterine devices, can be used immediately following abortion.[5] When performed legally and safely, induced abortions do not increase the risk of long-term mental or physical problems.[6] In contrast, unsafe abortions cause 47,000 deaths and 5 million hospital admissions each year.[6][7] The World Health Organization recommends safe and legal abortions be available to all women.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Safety

The health risks of abortion depend on whether the procedure is performed safely or unsafely. The World Health Organization defines unsafe abortions as those performed by unskilled individuals, with hazardous equipment, or in unsanitary facilities.[65] Legal abortions performed in the developed world are among the safest procedures in medicine.[2][66] In the US, the risk of maternal death from abortion is 0.7 per 100,000 procedures,[3] making abortion about 13 times safer for women than childbirth (8.8 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births).[67][68] This is equivalent to the risk of death from driving about 1200 km (760 miles).[3] The risk of abortion-related mortality increases with gestational age, but remains lower than that of childbirth through at least 21 weeks' gestation.[69][70][71]

Vacuum aspiration in the first trimester is the safest method of surgical abortion, and can be performed in a primary care office, abortion clinic, or hospital. Complications are rare and can include uterine perforation, pelvic infection, and retained products of conception requiring a second procedure to evacuate.[72] Preventive antibiotics (such as doxycycline or metronidazole) are typically given before elective abortion,[73] as they are believed to substantially reduce the risk of postoperative uterine infection.[52][74] Complications after second-trimester abortion are similar to those after first-trimester abortion, and depend somewhat on the method chosen.

There is little difference in terms of safety and efficacy between medical abortion using a combined regimen of mifepristone and misoprostol and surgical abortion (vacuum aspiration) in early first trimester abortions up to 9 weeks gestation.[43] Medical abortion using the prostaglandin analog misoprostol alone is less effective and more painful than medical abortion using a combined regimen of mifepristone and misoprostol or surgical abortion.[75][76]

Some purported risks of abortion are promoted primarily by anti-abortion groups, but lack scientific support.[77] For example, the question of a link between induced abortion and breast cancer has been investigated extensively. Major medical and scientific bodies (including the World Health Organization, the US National Cancer Institute, the American Cancer Society, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists) have concluded that abortion does not cause breast cancer,[78] although such a link continues to be studied[79][80] and promoted by anti-abortion groups.[77][81]

I think it should be the woman's choice, and that babies and fetuses can't really be considered "people".

I think it should be pretty damn obvious, IMO.

Eh its not obvious because I would reason its not true.

At the most they're equally traumatic. I know for a fact women have higher rates of depression and suicide after abortion.

Citation needed!!! You know this for a fact? I am extremely skeptical.

You may want to look up post partum depression, as well as do a bit of reading on the *hormonal* changes women experience during and after birth, which lead to *maternal bonding* with her child. These *hormonal* changes *do not* occur after an abortion. On the face of it, your claims are highly likely to be anti-abortion propaganda.

@Jai
Doesn't matter if it is legal or not. 31% is still a huge number, and most importantly, they are quite vocal (especially when they are represented by an entire party)

And have whole television networks (Fox News) dedicated to spreading the hatred.

In anchient Greece they used the argument that the human body doesn't recieve a soul until the age of 2. Hence postnatal abortion. Personally I agree with this philosophy too, although in practise it's not that simple in modern times, especially as even severely premature babies can be kept alive quite successfully now.

If we're going to go down the "when does life begin" route then you will always lose, because life began from Abiogenesis. After that it's just been a case of simple reproduction of cells and the passing of genetic material from one cell to another.

In that sense though you could argue that a "new" human is formed once an egg takes genetic material from a sperm cell and combines it to a new piece of DNA.

But given that view, during the process of IVF, hundreds of humans are killed for just one successful birth, which makes the whole process rather sickening.

In the end the decision is pretty arbitary, just like anything else. We just have to make the laws based on best intensions to protect the most people overall and best suit the needs of the species. We can't have a perfect solution because nature has not provided us one, nor does it intend to.

In my view, even just thinking about having sex and then not going through with it prevents the potential human that could have been made from being created at all, which is basically the same as murder.

In my view, even just thinking about having sex and then not going through with it prevents the potential human that could have been made from being created at all, which is basically the same as murder

No......

That would mean that giving a blowjob is the same as committing murder.

Your taking an insane view their.

Why to people feel the need to throw text walls at each other?

Abortion is moral.

Just accept it you redneck bible-bashers.

In anchient Greece they used the argument that the human body doesn't recieve a soul until the age of 2

Maybe just this time we can leave the ancient superstitions out of this :)

In my mind, and the most common sense and rational way to approach the question is to determine when the fetus becomes sentient. If the fetus has the ability to feel, and therefore to suffer, then yes i think it is fair to give him some basic rights. Before that...no

Edited 2/13/2016 01:29:21

Feline, the only argument against abortion is religion.

Citation needed!!! You know this for a fact? I am extremely skeptical.

http://afterabortion.org/2001/suicide-rate-higher-after-abortion-study-shows/

http://www.lifenews.com/2014/12/19/suicide-rate-for-women-having-abortions-is-six-times-higher-than-women-giving-birth/

http://www.lifenews.com/2013/07/31/studies-show-higher-risk-of-suicide-for-women-following-an-abortion/

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/abortion-and-suicide

http://www.life.org.nz/suicide/suicidekeyissues/abortion-and-suicide/

http://www.nationalrighttolifenews.org/news/2013/10/abortion-and-suicide-the-grim-statistics/#.Vr6Ni_IrLIU

http://www.aaplog.org/complications-of-induced-abortion/induced-abortion-and-maternal-mortality/induced-abortion-and-maternal-suicide/

http://afterabortion.org/2001/suicide-rate-higher-after-abortion-study-shows/

Does not show what you claimed. We're talking about the difference between women who have abortions vs. women who did not have an abortion but instead gave their child away to adoption. The article you linked to only says, "A new Elliot Institute study has found that women who have had abortions are more likely to commit suicide than those who have given birth," which is not at all surprising.

The other links all appear to claim the same thing. None of them say anything about adoption, AFAICT, after a quick skim.

In short, anti-abortion propaganda.

Edited 2/13/2016 02:07:23