1). You are assuming a believe in heaven.

True. Okay, then I'll ask you. Do you believe in Heaven? Hell? The afterlife? Some form of 'good' afterlife or 'bad' afterlife? What do you believe about what happens after one dies, especially in relation to one's beliefs about Jesus while one was alive?

2). You are assuming apparently, that I know enough about Conservative to say whether or not he's going to heaven.

Actually, no, I'm just taking you at your word that you believe that Conservative is not a "real" Christian. Then I am *asking* you if that means you believe he will not be part of the 'good' afterlife (that, you must admit, most self-proclaimed 'Christians' happen to believe in, even if you or your brand of 'Christianity' don't, which I am not assuming anymore one way or the other).

I knew that someone would eventually say I was going to hell XD

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished"


^ Jesus meant this..

he was trying to make a point that he was not there to rise a rebellion or cast down the prophets. The reason he said this was because many thought his radical new ideas were going to overthrow the jewish way of life. Jesus simply wanted to show the light to the world, not enforce it.

The OT is read faithfully by Christians because it is full of good ideas and has many lessons to be learned. But it is not Christian, it is jewish. The OT follows Israel through its history, recording her trials and moments of victory.

Here is a simple way to put it...


The original Christians were the apostles right? the apostles and jesus appeared in the NT only right? well then since the first Christians appeared in the NT, isn't it logical to assume that's where it all starts? and that anything before that if not Christian, must be jewish?


( repeating this so Hitch will see it lol )

Edited 2/2/2016 21:34:12

Plus the old testament was written entirely be orthodox jews, not Christians

( Live by the sword, die by the sword is a saying from the bible, yet my profile picture is a sword.... * begins sweating * )

Edited 2/2/2016 21:37:22

but it sates clearly that the Law of the OT, His Law (until he changed his mind?) is not to be changed. Why would he specifically says that the Law is not in anyway abolished? If a jew becomes a christian, doesn't he betrays the Law? Jesus doesn't want any Jew to follow him then?

No, this is where my entire point comes in to play.

people think jesus was there to change the law, overthrow the priests and enforce his new laws. That is not at all true. Jesus simply was telling people " Hey look, I am not here to overthrow anyone or change the official law. I am here to show you the light from my father and my religion and if you chose to follow it, so be it but if you don't then ok but either way I am just showing people what I believe to be true, not to otherthrow your way of life "


^ this is exactly my point on Gay marriage. I am here to tell you I think being gay is a sin yet, if people disagree ok then just continue to sin if you want. I am not here to otherthrow your rights, just to simply point out my belief system. and if you disagree that's ok, I will not hate you or treat you different. So, on the issue of gay marriage I am following Jesus' example.

( BTW by comparing myself to god and comparing gays to priests I mean no offense XD )

Edited 2/2/2016 21:45:01

well then since the first Christians appeared in the NT, isn't it logical to assume that's where it all starts?

Actually, according to the first Christians, no, that's not where it all starts. The NT didn't exist until decades after the first Christians. Decades after the supposed life and death of Jesus.

Aren't you kind of forgetting about the whole 'god' thing? You know, the 'creator', the 'alpha', the one who supposedly started it all?

In fact, according to many early Christians, again, before the NT as you know it existed, Jesus himself was present at the creation of everything. So, actually (well, really I mean supposedly ;-) ), the OT comes *after* Jesus' existence. So it must be 'Christian', according to a whole heck of a lot of 'Christians'.

No god created everything. Jesus came in after the OT as the son of god. Jesus was not present ( in the bible record at least ) at the beginning of creation, god was. I think your main confusion is based upon your getting god and Jesus' mixed up which is understandable

This thread has gotten ridiculous.

Conservative, WTC does not take you seriously.

sure, but he is God, and he tells people not to break any of his previous commands since he explicitely says that these commands are still valid. But if someone wants to follow him, then by definition they have to break the previous commands, since previously he ordered them to kill gays, and now he forbids (if you are right) to kill gays. I really don't follow the logic. Either the law of the OT is abolished and you can follow the New Law, or it is not and you have to stick by it. Why wouldn't he overthrow their way of life, since it is a supposedly a better way of life, and he already overthrew their way of life when he first gave his law to through the OT. It just doesn't make sense to me

Jesus was not present ( in the bible record at least ) at the beginning of creation, god was

So Jesus can't be God, or this sentence has no logic (i dont mean the human body of Jesus, i mean Jesus aka God aka Yahweh aka The Creator aka The Holy Spirit)

Edited 2/2/2016 21:54:43

First, Killing gays was something the jews did on there own, The TC never said that's how to deal with them. Basiclly, Your acting as if Jesus' set up a new CT going against god which is not true. None of Jesus' teachings went against the TC, What it went against was the traditional jewish customs and laws that developed based upon them

God And Jesus are two separate things ok? if we get these two mixed up it will be very confusing ( I think I confused it awhile back actually )

GOD: Jesus' farther, author of the TC, ect


JESUS: Gods son, did not appear until the NT, completely different

Jesus' teachings contradict most everything we consider wrong in the Old Testament. From his actions to his parables, Jesus has been shown to portray a different light of life than what is seen in the Old Testament. Jesus' first coming and going was the New Covenant, the latest addition. Why follow old rules?

Anyway, I think I have made my point. I hope hitch and Wct you can both see why I, a Christian, justifies supporting gay marriage

so Jesus(son), and God(father) are 2 different divinities then?

No.

Conservative is simply poor at theology.

people think jesus was there to change the law, overthrow the priests and enforce his new laws. That is not at all true. Jesus simply was telling people " Hey look, I am not here to overthrow anyone or change the official law.

Ohhh! I think I see where there's a miscommunication. You called it 'the official law', seemingly referring to laws made by humans. But in the Bible passages quoted earlier, it's referred to as 'the Law', as in, 'God's Law', as in, 'the Commandments' that this god supposedly gave to Moses and whoever it was who took up the job after Moses.

So when Jesus supposedly says 'I'm not here to challenge the Law' (paraphrased, not quoted, hence no " quotation marks; see how that works, guys?), he wasn't saying 'I'm not here to cause trouble with the human authorities', he was supposedly saying 'I'm not here to say that God's Laws have changed. His Laws are unchanged. You still have to follow them. I'm saying something in addition to those Laws.'

This is why fundies are obsessed with the 10 Commandments. (BTW, there are many many more Commandments than just the famous 10 (which themselves are actually more than 10); I seem to recall there are something in the neighbourhood of 600 or so total; various people dispute which ones are 'the ones we must follow' vs. 'the ones we can ignore', but of 'the ones actually claimed to be given from god', I'm pretty sure it's around 600.)

i understand your reasoning The Conservative. And while i'm glad that you ditched the Old Testament (one more to go :D ), i just don't understand the logic that leads to it, that's all

But fine, we can call it

Edited 2/2/2016 22:00:43

What is this pointless conversation?