The staff already said they would consider a ranking change (with no guarantee), but someone has to do all the leg work.

I suggest someone do a ladder based formula on their own and post the results. I am sure if the right formula was found and proven, we could convince them to use it

Personally, I don't like the idea of factoring in participation rates.

Suppose you have:

clan A with only 1 person on the ladder at 2000 rating
clan B with all 4 people on the ladder at 300 rating

Are you saying clan A should be ranked lower?


@Ben, your formula does not even consider actual rankings (only participation).

I also would not do average rating, because that punishes clans with people that are noobs (by lowering their average).

What would the flaw be to total rating for all clan members? I guess you could have a troll clan with 30 people on there that are 700 rated ranked higher than a clan with 5 people rated 2000. That doesn't seem right.

Perhaps the ranking should be the total ranking of the top 10 ACTIVE players from each clan on every ladder (1v1, 2v2, Current Season, RT).

@Chris, then clans like Apex would fall last because of members, also a lot of people do not like the 2v2 ladder template. Here is my new formula:

(A1 * 1000) + (A2 * 1500) + (A3 * 1200) + (P/2)

A1 = Average 1v1 Ladder Ranking for top 10 in clan
A2 = Average RT Ladder Ranking for top 10 in clan
A3 = Average Seasonal Ladder Ranking (Current/Most Recent) for top 10 in clan
P = Average Points in the last 30 days for top 10 in clan

My logic behind the weights:

- 1v1 Ladder moves super slowly and is just 1 template.
- RT Ladder moves very quickly and is 10 templates
- Seasonal Ladder has a lot of participants, and is seasonal.
- Points are less valueable because of this guy:
https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=7336723589

Edited 7/29/2015 00:21:01

If you put points in then ladder ratings are a waste. Players will have tens of thousands of points there and ladder points will have little impact. Some pkayers earn hundreds of thousands of points in 30 days.

Also, why weight ladders more than another? Especially less strategic ones than 1v1 ladder

Edited 7/29/2015 02:26:42

Also I just play diplos, so I'm not ranked at all. Some clans just play diplo games.

If you don't compete on ladders you probably don't care about the ranking then anyway

@Chris I was trying to think of something that would give non-elite clans a chance, I guess I didn't come up with the best idea. Also, in theory the RT ladder is 10 times more strategic than the 1v1 ladder because there are 10 times more templates to master. I would change 1v1 to the same weight as seasonal (or higher)

Edited 7/29/2015 03:34:10

ranking clans by calculation through points, ladder record, etc. all seems pretty silly to me. We should have a clan ladder/war system. I mean what do we care if it is calculated through the game? If it's calculated by points, the most active wins. If it's calculated by ladder records, then small elite clans win and big clans by default lose. If it's calculated by both, then it's just as bad of a metric as suggested before. Why not have a clan ladder that forces you to rotate your members consistently? A challenge/war system to fight over positions? If you have some sort of clan ladder, it's good for the competitive clan. A war system so that clans could also fight position through challenges (allowing diplos and very large team games) would fit for others.

@Lolo How would you rank clans that are not participating in the clan ladder? Other than that you made some great points.

Edited 7/29/2015 03:39:00

What is wrong with overlooking inactive clans? It would be a competition afterall.

My system would probably be fine for less elite clans because most of the elite ones dont have 10 players on the ladders anyway.

I dont see why we care about some vlans not being represented anyway. Shouldn't a ranking reflect performance anyway?

Edited 7/29/2015 03:59:43

I guess a special clan ranking performance would encourage active players in the community and a motivation to fix clans, but don't we already have the clan league for that? We don't need a whole new ladder for clans.

Yes we have clan league, but only 7 clans compete against each other in each division. And new clans have to wait 4 seasons to compete in A

@Benjamin: Clan league is a seasonal promo/relegation league. A Clan Ladder would work like 1v1 ladder, only you'd queue up members and 1 by 1 compete with rotating templates and team games. 3 members must be queue'd up at all time and there'd be a limit to how many games a player could do in a span of time.

So a clan with 3 members would be able to participate, but would not be able to do enough provisional games in order to be ranked. Clans not ranked are sorted by alphabetical order.

A challenge system could allow clans to fight each other using whatever settings they'd like, but would require both clans accepting. So say a clan is very good at 5v5 RoR, but not at the ladder templates. They could challenge another clan at whatever template they'd like to, and use those as a substitute to the ladder games. Just an idea though.

Edited 7/29/2015 04:21:07

I really like that idea. It made me think of a "clan account" where members from the clan can suggest moves and vote on them, but only managers can commit. It would work kind of like The Impaller vs the world, except clan vs clan. These clan accounts would be interesting to see on a clan ladder, but would be tough to implement with security issues and stuff.

what is clear is that no overarchign agreement exists within the community, thus fizer cannot follow any specific view. he may change the system but it will probably be because he wishes to, not because the proposals are beign any helpful.

I would love to see a change, but is the 1v1 ladder a good reference? arent there clans which are more inclined towards team games?

even if the 1v1 ladder was to become the reference what should be more importante? percentage of participation? amount of participants? average rating? added rating? average rank?

That is why I said ALL ladders. I think we could come up with a ranking system for ladders that almost everyone could agree on.

But, we ALSO need some sort of challenge/ladder system like Lolo said. I would guess for that, we'd need to do it via CLOT, and if it is popular Fizzer might adopt it on here. There is nothing stopping us from doing that system on our own so that he can make it official later. We need to get our random bonus people on this one. I will make a small mail thread regarding that.

For ranking: you can score players across ladders using TrueSkill to get an idea of their overall skill level (TrueSkill lets you rate a player based on their performance in varying types of match, from 1v1 to something crazy like 1v5v9v2).

Then you can either rank clans by the average rating of their players or instead treat each clan as a "player" and score clans instead of their members (which would give you a rating with rather high sigma, especially for bigger clans, hurting them a bit).

For a clan ladder: you can set it up exactly the same way as Clan League but allow clan leaders to swap in/out players. Have the games running continuously but assign each game to a "cycle" to make sure that faster moving clans aren't at an advantage or disadvantage. Rank clans based on completed cycles only- so the same # of games is factored into each ranking. Each cycle would have one completed game in each category/template. You can simply rate them based on the average of (mu - 3 * sigma) ratings across teams.

Edited 7/29/2015 17:24:23

What about labeling clans (diplo clans get diplo label, 1v1 or elite clans get a certain label, maybe the country based clans getting a label, activity or point label etc) and then being able to filter the clan page on these labels. Lets say you can filter on ladder stats where one of the previously mentioned formulas can be used to get the most skilled clans (where the diplo clans might be getting lower on the page), or a filter on just diplo label whatever (where the elite clans get lower on the page or just showing the diplo/roleplaying clans). This way you can make it easier for new players to find a clan that fits their playing style, by using multiple labels you get multiple 'rankings' as clans have different interests.

I don't really think that's feasible. Who sets the label? The creator of the clan? They can just advertise their clan incorrectly. I also really don't think ladder stats are all that feasible either. Here in Apex we've accepted 2 dual-clan members who have to put their alt in our main clan to represent their membership. Their alt has 0 ladder stats and would obviously drag us down. If you base it off of current ladder stats, then clans who have multiple people on vacation or just straight sick of playing 1v1 ME/RT templates get screwed. For example, really all I play lately are competitive 3v3s and other little challenges within my clan. None of these are going to show up on any sort of system.

So really the only fair way to do this is to create a system to participate in, instead of trying to track statistics in any arbitrary manner. If you create a system that works like the other ladders of this game, but accepts the possibility of challenges, then you cater to really everyone's needs. I can play competitive 3v3s vs other clans by challenging people, my clanmates can play 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4 clan ladder templates. Diplo clans can challenge other diplo clans using whatever template they'd like, and everyone can get some sort of ranking that is easily trackable and part of the game itself.

The creator of the clan? They can just advertise their clan incorrectly.

1. It's not in their interests to do so. If you have a store that sells clothing for morbidly obese people, you won't get much out of advertising it to skinny people.

2. Clans become what their membership wants them to be. If TRF started advertising itself as a Strategic Clan today, we'd likely be getting a higher proportion of strategic players (relative to diplo players) than we do today and be off the radar for diplo players looking for a Diplo Clan. In the long term, we'd become a more strategic clan than we are right now.

This label system would actually be pretty nice- other games with this functionality allow players to add "tags" to their clans/alliances/groups/whatever. The tags themselves are player-created so they end up being pretty accurate and reflect the sort of filters that the community wants to see.

I think the main flaw with this system is that it requires Fizzer to do something the community wants, which I don't think is very likely to happen.

So really the only fair way to do this is to create a system to participate in, instead of trying to track statistics in any arbitrary manner.

I agree. Something like an automated version of Clan Challenge League would probably be best. You can also weight the templates based on their popularity- e.g., if clans tend to challenge each other more often on EU 3v3 vs Poon Squad Imperium Romanum 8v8, EU 3v3 should be weighted higher. You can adopt the underlying logic of something like Swiss Tournaments to devise a ranking system for each challenge template.

Diplo clans can challenge other diplo clans using whatever template they'd like, and everyone can get some sort of ranking that is easily trackable and part of the game itself.

The issue with that is that there's no concrete way to be "better" at a diplo. I don't think diplo clans need to be in a ranking system like this.

Edited 7/29/2015 20:30:53