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A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/24/2015 20:51:19


Empire of Kilos
Level 32
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A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/24/2015 20:54:24


Nex
Level 60
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'Diplomacy' 'games' are not real Warlight
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/24/2015 22:16:12

iamtaller
Level 52
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If you don't like diplomacy games stop going onto threads about them. They are currently a legal form of gameplay (Fizzer doesn't stop people from making them, or discourage it), so they are a part of warlight.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/24/2015 22:18:47


Nex
Level 60
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Oh, I never said I don't like them. They're beautiful comedy! I come onto such threads to laugh at them ^__^
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/24/2015 22:39:13

iamtaller
Level 52
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And why are they funny, may I ask?
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/24/2015 22:56:50


kynte
Level 51
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Because they tend to collapse and the rules are often far too contrived to work. Diplo games very rarely function well unless they're multi-days run by clans. You'll find that playing strategic games outside a strategic clan is a lot easier than playing diplomacy games outside a diplomacy clan, and this only becomes increasingly true as the rules become more complex.

You also have to think about the sort of players attracted to diplomacy games- they're often the kind that don't know how to play strategy games, especialy if they join a diplo from Open Games. Look at the history of a diplo game, for example, and check move orders. You'll notice that most players in a diplo don't have a basic grasp of expansion, proper combat (not even the simple idea of going after bonuses), or turn order (risky moves last, stack-busters first, etc.).

Often, it's people who won't survive a 1v1 against a half-decent player (try playing a 1v1 with anyone in a big pure-diplo clan and you'll notice this) and try to make up for it by feeling "big" and "powerful" in a glorified lottery game. That's where a lot of imbalanced Custom Scenarios (e.g., ones with "host bonuses") come from. And of course, there's the kind of people that go out of their way to try and "win" a diplo.

Really, it's because most diplo players don't understand what a diplo fundamentally is. It's not like Rise of Nations or Age of Empires where it's a fair (and often strategic) game; instead, due to Warlight's lack of built-in support, it's often a set of contrived, poorly-thought-out rules overlaid on top of an imbalanced setup (very few maps work well with diplos, so often you can find a player who goes into the game with 10 times the chance of "winning" as another) where the only point is the experience.

The only good diplos are ones where people realize that- that it's all about roleplay and experience. It's fun, it's a game, but it's not strategic and it sure ain't worth bragging about when you "win."

When people don't, that's how you end up with PEs/boots/etc., leading to most diplos being complete jokes.

Even when a diplo works well, I'd take a 1v1 auto-game over it any day. A ladder game would be even better.

Edited 7/24/2015 22:57:55
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/24/2015 23:21:42


shyb
Level 59
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really the only times i ever had fun in diplos was giving myself little goals in the game or trying to serve justice. like trying to get the annoying dude eliminated, helping the person who is getting double teamed or attacked by a much bigger opponent, or fighting pes. or having a pure 1v1 war with someone of equal strength.

i knew it was a joke of a game, but i used to be able to find ways of making it fun and challenging.

i did start playing them for a weak ass reason though. i got frustrated with myself for not being good at strategy and i didn't seek out the tools to get better.

in the end i found diplos to be mostly annoying and when i joined the 1v1 ladder i had way more fun and slowly got better. (im still not good though)

im not gonna knock diplos or diplo players, cause playing any kind of game is supposed to be fun, and everyone has their own idea of fun.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/24/2015 23:26:30


Epicular
Level 46
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@Armin Arlert
Damn... well said.
+1

Edited 7/24/2015 23:26:49
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/24/2015 23:39:35


Genghis 
Level 54
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It's good to join diplos with 10-30 people. The less people, the easier to implement more rules. Diplomacy with friends and trusted players can have any amount of rules or intricacies.

It's also smart to look for diplos with prereqs, as they will have less chance of boots.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/24/2015 23:45:24


Eklipse
Level 57
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You also have to think about the sort of players attracted to diplomacy games- they're often the kind that don't know how to play strategy games

Often, it's people who won't survive a 1v1 against a half-decent player (try playing a 1v1 with anyone in a big pure-diplo clan and you'll notice this)

'Diplomacy' 'games' are not real Warlight

I think you guys are being a bit unfair here. The whole, "Diplos don't have any strategy" argument is very false. They do require strategy, just strategy of a different kind. You have to make proper alliances, decide who you can trust and who you can't. You've got to decide when's the proper time to invade someone or whether or not it's worth getting involved in an on going war. There's a lot of factors to consider because you aren't just dealing with numbers, you're dealing with the unpredictability of people.

Secondly, judging people based only on their 1v1 skills comes off as really elitist. Probably more than people who do so are even aware of. Just because somebody isn't in the top X of the 1v1 ladder doesn't make them a bad player. There's far more to Warlight than 1v1. Heck, this game is based off of Risk and Risk is rarely 1 v 1. I'd argue that team games,FFAs, and even Diplos take just as much strategy to win as 1v1 games. It's just a matter of different kinds of strategy.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/24/2015 23:47:14


Fleecemaster 
Level 59
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Everyone has the idea of Diplos spot on.

I've gone off Diplos more recently because it's too usually a very political game, and often if you get warmongers in the game with the stronger slots it can often get boring very fast.

Ultimatly it should be about fun though, like any game :)

Oh, also a good way to make diplos more about fun and less about winning is to make them practise games, stops so many war mongerers getting involved usually I find.

Edited 7/24/2015 23:55:06
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 00:08:29


kynte
Level 51
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im not gonna knock diplos or diplo players, cause playing any kind of game is supposed to be fun, and everyone has their own idea of fun.


Bingo. Games are played for fun. All the objectives, etc., are just things we establish to achieve that.

Diplos are equally valid in that regard because people use them to achieve their objective of having fun.

That said, I wouldn't consider them competitive. It's like skipping rocks on a lake- the kind of game you play for pure enjoyment, not to demonstrate superiority in any form of ability.

As for Eklipse, you've made some valid points. Theoretically, diplomacy games test your ability to plan ahead (build robust alliances) and work with people without fully knowing/understanding their knowledge or intentions. The issue is that there are too many other factors in the game (boots, starts, people who get bored and decide to play kingmaker) that ultimately "break" diplos as a game, causing them to run into some classical problems (like the kingmaker problem I mentioned earlier). There's ultimately just too much luck involved for the game to be "fair" or "strategic" and in the end it's just something you play purely for the sake of having fun. There's nothing wrong with that, of course.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 00:42:09

[WOLF]Andrew
Level 54
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FFA's are good classic strategic games. Diplo games are meant to be played for fun, not winning. Diplomacy games are in one way like Communism: in a perfect world where everyone follows the rules it's amazing, but this isn't a perfect world, unless you play with highly trusted friends something is bound to go wrong. They require not strategy in war, but strategy to win a war. Sometimes you may need a little bit of FFA style playing as Russia to beat back an angry Napoleon, but it is rare you will ever use FFA skills in a diplomacy game, if you ever will.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 00:43:51


kynte
Level 51
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FFAs are far from strategic outside very, very few cases.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 01:11:48

alpha1248
Level 42
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All games, including this one, are meant to be about having fun, and games provide the medium for having fun. However, because people get their fun from so many different sources, from strategic thinking, to roleplaying, to shooting anything in their path, that it's impossible for any game to cater to everyone in a one-size-fits-all fun style. As such, most games only focus on one aspect that people find fun. Warlight for example is a game catered to those who like to play strategy. Those who want to use Warlight to play roleplay and diplo games can do that, but they have to realize that the game is only catered to strategic players, and with that comes the risk of PEs, warmongerers, etc. It's wrong to consider diplos or rps inferior or superior than strategic games because they're fundamentally different, and there is really no way to objectively compare them.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 03:05:23

M. Poireau
Level 55
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I actually have a slightly different view. Diplomacy games can be fascinating and complex, and certainly require a great deal of thought, finesse, and strategy. A "diplomacy" game has a number of interesting design features (for instance, with good players it should automatically be balancing for stronger positions versus weaker positions: because, of course, you'll have to deal very differently with a player with a stronger position than one who has little strength and no good position).

However, Diplomacy games here on Warlight are stunted, crippled versions of what a Diplomacy game can be. For some reason, there is a tremendous desire in the community for hard rules surrounding alliances, peace, declarations of war, and "PEs".

All these features kill the game dead. There is no subtlety or strategy. Generally speaking, everyone allies with everyone, until someone breaks a rule, and then everyone attacks that person. There is nothing interesting about that: of COURSE they will win, there is no other possible outcome.

The bizarre rules for alliances, declarations of war, and so on completely ruin the game, making into this weird thing that everyone complains about.

Give up on this idea of unbreakable alliances enforced by the game itself, and embrace actual Diplomacy play, where your agreements are only as good as your ability to enforce them. That makes it interesting. Otherwise, it's just a weird kind of "playing house", just with Warlight armies instead of dolls.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 14:51:19


Nex
Level 60
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Secondly, judging people based only on their 1v1 skills comes off as really elitist. Probably more than people who do so are even aware of. Just because somebody isn't in the top X of the 1v1 ladder doesn't make them a bad player.


The social hierarchy of Warlight is merit-based. If that is elitism, then so be it.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 15:53:22


Potatoe
Level 57
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From lvl 1-25 I mainly played Diplomacy games. I'm now into Strategy games Turkey 1v1. My reason for this is because of people getting booted, Being PEs and Super-powers gangbanging. Diplomacy games would be amazing if people could play Diplomacy games properly..
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 16:32:46


[IM]YouMustBeKidding
Level 58
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Diploy game --> Non competitive game --> your primary goal isn't winning --> set them up as practice games.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 17:21:42


Eklipse
Level 57
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The social hierarchy of Warlight is merit-based. If that is elitism, then so be it.

Merit-based hierarchy isn't the problem. The problem is that some people seem to think that only 1v1 has any merit. This is like saying being a doctor is the only worthy profession in the world, when there are others who contribute.

2v2,3v3,etc. all have just as much merit as 1v1.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 17:30:41


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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Eklipse, many people hold merit in any even game.. *1v1 2v2 3v3 4v4 5v5 etc.* the games that are non-merit held, tend to be the ones that are not even. *1v1v1, 2v2v2 ffa/diplo* simply because you can talk your way into victory, rather than your side being of greater ability.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 17:33:32


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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M. Poireau.
I agree completely...
the idea of PM enabled games, is that there are loose alliances, and with that, everything that is involved in politics.. backstabbing when they are powerful/vulnerable, being included..
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 18:58:28


Nex
Level 60
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2v2,3v3,etc. all have just as much merit as 1v1.


2v2, 3v3 etc =/= diplomacy.

2v2, 3v3 etc =/= ffa.




FFA's [sic] are good classic strategic games.


That's grade-A nonsense. Here, I'll help explain:


Turn 0, picking stage, you have 3 options: auto dist, manual dist or custom scenario. Auto-dist is by default, not strategic. Custom scenarios are, by default, rigged. An equal start for all players does not exist in free-for-alls with custom scenario turned on.


That leaves manual distribution. That might actually make things strategic but even here there are problems:

The number of picks one must make is equal to the number of players multiplied by the number of picks given per player. Example, four picks per player * 20 player FFA = 80 picks you must make. Given that even in 3v3 Europe with only 24 picks needed it is difficult to calculate the best set of picks to ensure a good position, 80 picks is insanity. So, either you make 80 picks and most are sub-par quality because no one ever bothers to think through every single pick in a free-for-all with a 1/20 chance of winning with best play, or, you make less than 80 picks and accept that you're a lazy noob.

That isn't strategic.

Edited 7/25/2015 19:01:16
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 19:05:30


Nex
Level 60
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This also brings me to the next point: A strategic fight should give a 50% chance of winning with equal skill, with a higher likelihood of winning given to the player with more skill. 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 all give equal chances to both sides. Free-for-alls do not. 'Diplomacy' games do not. Assuming equal, a 4-person free-for-all has a 25% chance of winning. A 6-player free-for-all has a 16% of winning. etc.

This is not strategic.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 19:06:39


Genghis 
Level 54
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In ffa best strategy is just to turtle up.
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 19:12:39


Nex
Level 60
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In ffa best strategy is just to turtle up.


Actually, the best strategies for free-for-alls, as proven by me:

1) be the host.

1a) Use unorthodox settings. ex. 0 army income with reinforcement cards every 3 turns, encouraging newcomers to not pay attention and lose on turn 1.

1b) Use extremely unreasonable boot times. 100 day autoboot or 1 minute manual boot. Most people can't keep up.

1c) Use open seat prereqs to filter out anyone who might know what they are doing. Only play noobs!

1d) Never join a free-for-all that you are not hosting.

I have tested the above settings before, and can prove their validity as the strongest free-for-all strategies. At least one of my alts has a 100% score in every single FFA % up to 11-player FFAs.

Edited 7/25/2015 19:13:49
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 19:28:44


Eklipse
Level 57
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Whatever happened to just having fun with it anyways? Not everything has to be uber-strategic by the numbers in order for people to enjoy it. The very purpose of a game should be for everyone to have fun, it's not all about winning. Fun is the whole point of gaming.

So if everyone involved in something is having fun, then it has just as much merit as any other type of game. It seems to me like some people just like to diss on those who aren't good at the things they are specifically good at. While at the same time denounce the things they themselves aren't as skilled with.

Every type of game on Warlight sans lottries and blatantly rigged custom scenarios involves some level of strategy. It doesn't matter if it doesn't meet your own rigid requirements of the word strategic.

Edited 7/25/2015 19:30:40
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 19:43:53


Nex
Level 60
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There's nothing wrong with having fun. And if having fun means, to you, playing a bunch of role-playing games with rigged custom scenarios, so be it... but I won't ever take you seriously if you insist that's strategic when compared to 1v1. :)
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 19:47:02


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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Eklipse, I agree.. I personally love auto-dist, and ffa's *non diplo* but it's a poor standard to grade skill on.

But I'm also the kind of person that will impose handicaps on myself in games I am better at than my opponent *any game, not saying warlight* to make the game more interesting/fun for myself.. *like playing jugglypuff with 100% handicap on ssb, or always using random*
A prime example of a diplo game overrun with PE's: 7/25/2015 19:53:11


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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Wzu, those unorthodox settings just prove that your experience on those settings are better than someone who hasn't played it..

and there can be custom scenarios that are fair fights, just need a map that is symetrical in all directions from each start location..
there are several maps on here that would do for it.. it just takes a different kind of strategy than manual picks, simply because starting locations are known by everyone for everyone.
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