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No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 00:50:36


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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I picked a minute faster, yet i get 2nd pick, how is that possible?
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 00:54:06


Genghis 
Level 54
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Should've had a link.

Edited 7/21/2015 07:15:43
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 00:56:27


Nex
Level 60
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Time is only counted once you click 'begin'. Entering the game late and then making picks 7 seconds after clicking begin, for example, can still win out over someone who clicked begin immediately and made picks in 15 seconds. Check the players' tab to see actual pick times.
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 01:02:53


knyte 
Level 58
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As FK said, it seems like an issue of fast vs. first. Was this game RT or MD?

Also, -1 Genghis (since he seems to care for this sort of feedback.).
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 01:08:14


Nex
Level 60
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I'll use this game as a quick example. https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=9116714


While player speed appears the same since it is 1 minute boot times,

The actual picking speed is obviously different:
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 01:48:41


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Wow, I was on mobile Genghis, nice job being a dick though.

https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=9133655

He had first turn of 5 seconds, I took 30 seconds. He must not have clicked begin right away because I had my orders in before he submitted his. So I guess it is not broken (I cannot see those stats on the mobile app, which stinks a bit).


Anyway, this auto game needs a tweak. It is basically first pick wins. The starting spots should not have 5 armies, because you can get a first turn bonus from 1 start. That is crap, since I played 5 games on it and every time the first pick had a huge advantage.
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 01:50:36


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Like this game:

https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=9133857

I might as well just pick 2 spots and commit in 2 seconds. WTF is the point of this template if the first person to commit in 3 seconds wins?
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 01:59:16


Ragnarok
Level 66
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The point is, every less skilled player will try to make a run on it because it's mostly about who gets the first pick, so Fizzer will get his 20%.
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 02:00:51


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Well, it would still be played as much with 3 armies per start, or 4 per start and 4 income base
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 02:27:11


Ragnarok
Level 66
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Yeah, but if you try to make something more strategic you might run into Krzychu.

Edited 7/21/2015 02:27:24
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 06:42:41


Genghis 
Level 54
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Okay I don't see why I'm getting any hate. It's just a basic rule that you should link the game so that we understand the situation at hand. Not to mention, any other factors in play. I can't help you with your problem because I am not very proficient with no-luck cycle (I have yet to stop giving it the cold shoulder) but I believe that it is something of necessity. Perhaps you should've said beforehand that you were on mobile, and even then it is possible to link games (though very difficult) when you're on mobile. I manage to put up images and other things on forums while on mobile, and I imagine that it couldn't be much harder. I agree I wasn't being very nice, but I disagree with me deserving disrespect when I am trying to get the basic information coughed up.

Edit:

That all being said, this is an interesting insight on no-luck cycle. This definitely creates ways to game the system.

Edited 7/21/2015 06:45:05
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 06:54:51


knyte 
Level 58
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^ None of those were relevant factors in this case, Genghis, even if they would have helped. You're getting all this hate because you were a dick about it. Makes it look even worse when you come across as arrogant when you're giving advice to one of the most respected (and top) players of Warlight.

So not only were you a completely unhelpful jerk, you were a jerk to one of the people you absolutely should never be a jerk to.

Edited 7/21/2015 08:04:47
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 07:15:27


Genghis 
Level 54
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Well in any case we should see the game.

In this case it offers :
Data that we can yield.

As for being a jerk, that is debateable. If this was posted by say, a level 3 new to the forums, you would surely not give a damn.

But because he's respected, it's different. And for that i think

-1 knyte

Because if we treat new players that we know nothing about different than even the most veteran player when we have no basis, we are being assholes inadvertently.

Regardless, I'll edit the post so that you feel better.

Edit : I've given anecdotes and the like on the forum for 2 years, ran and stuck and led 2 minor clans, participated in numerous events, and I've offered a few scenario to the public to boot.
Yet where's my respect?

Edit 2 :
I GAVE THIS TO THE FORUMS FOR CHRISSAKE!
https://www.warlight.net/Forum/67694-zork-forum-game-2
I have yet to be thanked for bestowing such a beautiful gift.

Edited 7/21/2015 07:50:36
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 11:39:55


Buns157 
Level 68
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Hmm so according to what ive read, its better to make your decisions about where to start in no luck cycle, then click begin and quickly put them in?
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 12:57:46


Beren • apex 
Level 63
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@buns, that is correct. That doesn't help in games with wastelands or random warlords distributions though, since you won't know where the wastelands/warlords are until you click begin.
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 13:27:38


Sephiroth 
Level 60
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@Chris: I think you had very good chances of winning that game

Turn 1: deploy all in SA, take Brazil with 6 and Peru with 3

Turn 2: deploy all in Brazil, transfer the 1 army in Peru to Brazil first order, make 3 more delays in asia and finish taking SA. If he attacks you, you lose 5 armies while he loses 7 or 8 (7 if he attacked first action, 8 if he attacked later) and you are 1 card piece ahead - so you're totally fine; if he does not attack you, there are 2 possibilities: he either got one territory and the card piece deploying 1 to 2 armies in Oceania (which makes him unable to steamroll you in SA because he will not have a big stack advantage) or he deployed all 7 armies in africa, which gives him a slight stack advantage but puts him behind 1 card piece - in both cases you're fine.

Turn 3+: now you can try grabbing NA while preventing him to get Africa, or just fake you are taking NA, deploying in the fog in SA and baiting him to waste his armies to reach it from Oceania or to try and steamroll you
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 13:45:34


Beren • apex 
Level 63
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Yeah, the Small Earth template does give an advantage to the player who gets an FTB, but it's not usually game-defining. There are ways to outplay the player who got it, especially when you're not playing a pro.
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 15:42:14


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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@Sepheroth - Best case I am in a stalemate with him. Perhaps I could have taken NA long term, but he would have probably taken Africa by then as well. Maybe I could win that long term though.

But no matter how you slice it, I don't think any format where you can most likely take the only FTB on the board on the first turn with a single pick should be labeled as "no-luck". I guess since it IS based on pick speed, there isn't really luck involved. However, is that what we really want our auto games to be like?
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 15:47:05


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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How would you win this game without SA?:

https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=9133857

I did my best to get a bonus, what can i do? I could have survived another turn in North Africa if I sent full there, but he could have just as easily sent Iceland too.

I played him 5 times, and in 3 of those games IMO the first pick had a big advantage. The other two were not at all defined by it. Maybe the first one if I played it better I could have pulled it out, but he still had the upper hand to start regardless (worst case 2 extra income on turn 2). I don't know how often the FTB option happens, but we had it 3 times in 5 games.

Edited 7/21/2015 15:48:57
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 15:56:36


Master Ryiro 
Level 62
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small earth coin games template is faulty,i've complained before many times in forums but...
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 16:15:22


Sephiroth 
Level 60
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yeah nothing you could have done on that game

btw i totally agree with you chris, no-luck cycle as it is now is crappy and flawed, especially in 1v1s (i think it works much better in team games).
I tried to think of ways to improve that, and I didn't find anything that could be better than this - the only thing i would change is a dialog popping up when you hit commit the first turn which asks you if you want to be first or last; if both you and your opponent want to play last on a 1v1 game you'll have to wait until the last second before boot, and the one who clicked "Begin" first has second order.

Fizzer asked for opinions about no luck cycle a while ago, and if i remember correctly only Gui brought up a suggestion that looked well balanced, but it made the picking stage way harder (and it wasn't so immediate to understand)
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 16:36:28


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Well, if the template was more balanced, then first pick would not be as much of a game breaker. I don't care how you decide first move (coin flip could be used), it still should not decide the game. The issue isn't with who has first pick, it is that first pick should not decide the game (especially not a coin game).

small earth is not balanced anyway, but I get why we still use it (risk lore). I'd rather see some tweaks though. Like maybe no wasteland and 3 picks (allowing for a combo somewhere else)? Not sure.
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 16:52:42


Nex
Level 60
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Don't play Small Earth 1v1 coin matches. I suspect that Fizzer deliberately set up Small Earth 1v1 so that it would be harder for players to break even on it in terms of coin-making. I've managed to have a modest success on Earth 1v1 coin games, but on Small Earth I find myself losing money in the long run. Perhaps that is only because I am better at hustling on Earth 1v1, perhaps not. This suspicion is reinforced by the fact there is no 80-coin Earth 1v1.
No luck cycle not working?: 7/21/2015 20:22:27


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Exactly, why are there no 80 coin Earth games? 10 coins is too little.
No luck cycle not working?: 7/22/2015 02:03:12


ℳℛᐤƬrαńɋℰ✕
Level 57
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Fizzer´s Topic about move order and Coin-game Cycles
https://www.warlight.net/Forum/84028-s-talk-luck-move-order

Quite an interesting reading. You can attack this problem on many corners. Easiest as mentioned already would be to play balanced maps: then it only comes down to order cycle not First pick! Even earth is not that balanced - and much of depending where the wastelands are there happens only one way victory (although variations of countering) can reduce it etc.
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