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Living underground: 6/16/2015 15:52:20


berdan131
Level 56
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Hello fellow warlighters

I just realized that an underground city would be a perfect place to be, during winter or bad weather.

Just think about it, the temperature rises by about 1 degree celsius per 15-45 meters depth.(geothermal gradient)

So if we go deep enough, we can have a perfect temperature at about 22 celsius(72 fahrenheit) all year round. It is probably a great solution for countries with harsh winters. Not to mention 365-year growing season, although it would need some lamps and water.

Underground city exists under Toronto.

Can you find anything on the topic of living underground with perfect temperature? I couldn't find too much.

Also, survivalists heaven :d
and a save spot for everyone who wants to avoid repression, government or anything.
Living underground: 6/16/2015 16:54:29


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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It costs to dig. I think this is the main problem.

But 22 degrees is too hot. And also, it will probably be very humid.

Edited 6/16/2015 17:01:08
Living underground: 6/16/2015 17:38:29


berdan131
Level 56
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@Жұқтыру

You have a point. But I want to assume that a state abandoned an old mine and there's plenty of free space or that we are rich.

Besides, if you want cooler temperature, you need to dig less deep.

About the humidity, I am not so sure. Near the surface it's not the problem. I know the humidity is very high at very low levels when temp. is above 30.

But I am not sure about humidity in between. Btw I don't really understand where it comes from so deep below :d
Living underground: 6/16/2015 17:41:15


berdan131
Level 56
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Again, if anyone has found useful information please share it :)


Real-life examples would also be helpful
Living underground: 6/16/2015 18:18:12


Genghis 
Level 54
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The issue with living underground is the longterm effects. This isn't a "oh, stop playing video games and get outside! " but a " Without the sun, we're going to turn into ghouls. "

I doubt we'll ever have the technology to properly mimic or trying to channel the sun, especially at such depths. At least, within our lifetime. It's a sad ( or perhaps awesome? ) thing that we'll likely put colonies on Mars before we start living underground.

A similar idea to this is "underwater cities", and idea that Jacques Cousteau, a famous biologist-type person, pondered. The problems are actually similar : lack of sunlight at deep depths, difficult to create agriculture (aquaculture would be a likely solution) and an issue unique to underwater living would be water pressure.
Living underground: 6/16/2015 19:29:23


Fuhrer king Bradley
Level 10
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yeah someone just found vault tech, build a bunch around america, start a nuclear war and then we can live underground in peace.
Living underground: 6/16/2015 19:59:32


berdan131
Level 56
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@Genghis

In the winter there is no sunlight anyway. The point is that you can enjoy perfect temperature comfort 365 a year (tho you need not be there all year). And it costs you nothing.

When outside, 200, 500 or 800 meters above your ground there is freezing cold, you can walk in short sleeve and not pay any bills. Enjoy!

This is fucking revolutionary guys :O

Like being in tropical island for free http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/06/tropical-islands-germany_n_2715938.html
Living underground: 6/16/2015 20:52:48


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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Yea, costs nothing... other than digging all that way down and excavating enough space for habitation. And of course there is the massive energy requirements needed to produce food without the benefit of free solar energy. Then you have to run some sort of air scrubber to ensure there is sufficient oxygen and harmful gases don't build up.

But yes, that would totally cost nothing...
Living underground: 6/16/2015 21:17:43


berdan131
Level 56
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@Richard Sharpe

I mean, the heating of a house is for free :> (geothermal)

Unless you build a mine, harmful gases are not present or very, very rare.

The cost of food is... c'mon you can buy food from outside. It's up to you. You can even go outside everyday using elevator/stairs.

Ventilation adds some cost, indeed, but probably less cost than the difference in energy bill.

The only problem are high start-up costs but let's be positive and assume you have some million dollars or so :D
Living underground: 6/17/2015 13:21:09


Fleecemaster 
Level 59
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I live in a basement flat, and I can tell you this isn't as awesome as it sounds.

No light, it's a pain, but I have high watt halogen bulbs, which produce light similar to that of the sun (Black body light, of about 4500K) and I can still go outside, but it's not really the same.

The damp, is terrible, I have to run a dehumidifier all the time just to keep mould off the walls. Moisture just seeps into the walls, can't be helped. I'm surrounded by damp soil.

The temperature, is always too cold. The walls are surrounded by soil, so the heat dissipates very fast and efficiently, so even on a really hot summers day I have to keep the heating on to feel like I'm at room temperature. Silly huh?

This might be different if you were living in a desert, but I'm in England. Which probably explains the damp soil and temperature.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind it. I'm just pointing out that it's not some wonderful idea... If you're too hot, buy Air-con. It'll be cheaper.
Living underground: 6/17/2015 13:31:19


Thomas 633
Level 56
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Living underground: 6/17/2015 13:32:57


Thomas 633
Level 56
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Living underground: 6/17/2015 18:11:31


berdan131
Level 56
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Thank you for your descriptions and articles :)

Now we know something about living underground near the surface and that it isn't always as bad as it seems for people.

What remains unclear is how the situation looks deeper and I think it's much more difficult to find information about deep underground homes. I read that in Coober Pedy the temperature is constant at 24 celsius but it gets cool in the winter, because it is too close to the surface, I suppose.

Here is the graph of temperature amplitude with depth:



The problem of amplitude is solved below 9 meters/30 feet deep. But it is still too cool in many northern places, not 70 fahrenheit, but only 45. Below map of temperature near the surface.



http://www.earthrivergeo.com/geothermal-hvac-loop-systems-information.php

So I am interested how deep is enough to achieve constant 72 fahrenheit(22 celsius) during all year in northern US for example, and what are experiences of people living so deep. Hopefully there is information :d

Edited 6/17/2015 18:13:47
Living underground: 6/18/2015 00:09:16


Thomas 633
Level 56
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Living underground is only useful in extreme heat or extreme cold. In South Australia, the entire state spends a 4 month summer with the temp being above 95F and reguarly above 105F every day.

EDIT:
The southern part of the state has a Mediterranean climate, while the rest of the state has either an arid or semi-arid climate. South Australia's main temperature range is 29 °C (84 °F) in January and 15 °C (59 °F) in July. Daily temperatures in parts of the state in January and February can be up to 48 °C (118 °F).

The highest maximum temperature was recorded as 50.7 °C (123.3 °F) at Oodnadatta on 2 January 1960, which is also the highest official temperature recorded in Australia. The lowest minimum temperature was −8.2 °C (17.2 °F) at Yongala on 20 July 1976. (77.1% of the population lives in the states capital (and by US standards only) city, which is still dry but in a more subtle climate)

I would check out either the northern American states, or Siberia for more info on underground shelters.

Edited 6/18/2015 00:21:53
Living underground: 6/19/2015 20:10:00


ℳℛᐤƬrαńɋℰ✕
Level 57
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About repression, goverment etc.

The current highlighted topic is "Very Large Floating Structures" (VLFS). Shortly floating city projects. Why it is hot topic, is because main amount of earth surface water-seas are international waters - meaning outside of countries jurisdiction. Every coastal country has 12 miles of radius border from its coastline - meaning its his territorial sea. And 200 miles for economic exclusive zone. Leaving enormous amount of water under internationally free.

What it means?
You can basically create artificial islands and start a new nation-country in international waters. There are quite a lot Sea-nation projects which try to create those islands with core principle that it would be self-sufficient and non-dependent from the continent. And they claim to create social-experiments, trying ti test new democracy ideas, country-repression free - aka utopias to be reality. These would be quite costly, but interesting projects and these are financed highly at moment.

Google-Youtube: Floating cities, Very Large Floating Structures, artificial floating islands, Seastanding Institute.

About the underground living.
I could not find the source i used to deal with, but terms like Earth House, Earth Sheltering has similar ideas. These houses are built mainly in deserts, hot places to create cool climate. They are also self-sufficient, solor powered etc. But thet do not go that deep into earth. Generally maximum 20 meters or so, but in commercial sense maybe 10 meters could be affordable. Previously Earth Housing was used to build use under hill like Hobbit :) to reduce cost for heating - it has quite dissapeared nowadays.

Underground living and sheltering is linked with severe weather, nature catastrophes and therefore mainly information is about those kind of shelters that offer it only for short period of time. Earth housing is meant to be lived in - decent rooms etc.

Tolerance Limits of People for Cold, Heat and humidity in underground shelters
https://books.google.ee/books?id=-mErAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=Limits+for+Cold,+Heat+and+Humidity+in+Underground+Shelters&source=bl&ots=a8WevBesLJ&sig=yMId677gb-4crIiwrcTNYGfxxJk&hl=et&sa=X&ei=NnWEVfnjDuqoygOXpaqYCA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Limits%20for%20Cold%2C%20Heat%20and%20Humidity%20in%20Underground%20Shelters&f=false
Living underground: 6/19/2015 23:03:05


berdan131
Level 56
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It seems it is one of few topics you will not find quick answers on internet.
Good remark that underground shelters are used in hot climates to create cool conditions, but there is no information about naturally warm deep underground shelters in cool climates.

Maybe I should return to reading "Deeper" by Gordon and Williams for fantasy to give me some understanding ;)

I guess if we want to find we should look in "working conditions in mines" or "long stays in the mines", idk.

You found some theory, so its better than nothing. A real life examples like miners forum could be helpful maybe xd
Living underground: 6/20/2015 17:26:34


Fleecemaster 
Level 59
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If it was viable, it would happen, that's how the world works...
Living underground: 6/20/2015 18:07:21


berdan131
Level 56
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@Fleecemaster

Don't take everything for granted,
We will not know unless someone makes an experiment ;)

Every technology has its beginnings.
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