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4 and 5 start picking strategies: 2/19/2015 20:01:26

Lackadaisical 
Level 54
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Up until now I’ve played maybe 650 games with 3 starts and only 20-30 with more than 3. In 3 pick games there are 11 possible permutations of picks, making it very easy to run through each of them and order your picks in ways that reduce the chance of you ending up with a bad combination of them. In 4 pick games there are 31 combinations which for me makes choosing and ordering my picks a lot more difficult. I’m looking for advice on picking on 4 and 5 start templates.

Are there certain permutations I should focus on due to them being a lot more likely?

Are there any tried and tested picking methods I can employ to help me learn on these games? (an example on a 3 start template being comboing 1st with 2nd and 3rd with 4th and the 5th being a counter to 3,4 or quick income and the 6th being safe income or countering the 5th)
4 and 5 start picking strategies: 2/23/2015 23:28:13


Ĉ§illynamenace
Level 57
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I think which map you play on matters a lot, doesn't it? I'm saying, I doubt if there can be a general strategy for thinking about the permutations.

Edited 2/23/2015 23:28:30
4 and 5 start picking strategies: 2/24/2015 01:05:04


Norman 
Level 57
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Hello

Not many answers so far... I have to admit that I don't have that deep thoughts about combinations in 4 pick games, however some basic stuff from 3 picks games is still important for me. I guess you are talking about templates like the "Treasure Map" of the Real Time ladder.

Often those maps have one area that you absolutely want to cover, for example a first turn bonus. For that you can use your picks 1/2 or 1/3 since that way you make sure to get at least one spot there.

Often there is one first turn bonus that needs two picks which kind of dominates the map so you expect your opponent to go for it. If you want to counter it you have quite some options with which picks to check if your opponent is there and with wich pick to place the counter.

If my number 1 pick isn't obvious since it's not dominating the board I often assume that I won't lose it. When there are 4 picks then usually also the map is bigger with more viable options.

I guess it's quite map dependant but according to my experience maps like this Treasure Map have some very obvious spots / combos that your opponent will probably go for and the only question is whether your opponent will pick those spots with his first two picks or with later picks. If you have a good spot that works well against such an "obvious choice" you might consider just blindly assuming that the opponent went for the obvious without picking there yourself. I don't really like this "5 counters your 3+4" thing since you probably just end up countering yourself. Since you were talking about possible permutations, also in templates with 3 spots getting your picks 3,5 or 4,5 is possible and often not unlikely.
4 and 5 start picking strategies: 2/24/2015 15:50:32


Ĉ§illynamenace
Level 57
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Norman,

I don't really like this "5 counters your 3+4"


what's that?
4 and 5 start picking strategies: 2/24/2015 16:39:14


Norman 
Level 57
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what's that?

You check with your picks 3+4 if the opponent picked something with his 1+2 and then you counter it with your pick number 5. Not a good strategy imo, if your number 5 can't stand on his own. Your main goal should be no to "win on picks" but rather not to "lose on picks". The opponent can lose on picks all by himself and a good way of doing so is if he plays that "5 counters 3+4" thing.
4 and 5 start picking strategies: 2/24/2015 18:17:41

Lackadaisical 
Level 54
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I guess you are talking about templates like the "Treasure Map" of the Real Time ladder.
Yes, although I've found treasure map to be easier to pick on than guiroma and strat greece.

I guess my question was far too general. I'll look at some seasonal ladder games and see what I can infer from there.
I don't really like this "5 counters your 3+4" thing since you probably just end up countering yourself.
I mentioned that particular picking strategy because it's (on strat 1v1 ME at least) both commonly used and commonly effective. If the 5th is a long term counter getting 3,5 or 4,5 isn't a problem. There are several others I could have mentioned in its place, for instance putting 1,2 on the best combo, 3 in a safe bonus, 4,5 on the second best combo and 6 as a counter to the 4,5. I was wondering if there was anything comparable to these in games with 4 and 5 starting territories.

Edited 2/24/2015 18:34:47
4 and 5 start picking strategies: 2/24/2015 18:44:53

DanWL 
Level 62
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Depends to much on settings, otherwise do 1 and 2 close to each other and 3 - 5 further away from 1 and 2 as well as picks 3 - 5 being near to each other.

This post will be blanked after a whole week, from now, as an attempt to hide my strategy.
4 and 5 start picking strategies: 2/24/2015 19:09:00


Norman 
Level 57
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This post will be blanked after a whole week, from now, as an attempt to hide my strategy.
Damn, you are hardcore

But looking at your ladder games I'm still wondering what is your strategy about where to place your pick number 7?

For example:
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=8081165
4 and 5 start picking strategies: 3/6/2015 22:47:07


Hostile
Level 58
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Triple-picking :

Place a territory as 1st to counter it. If it works, the two territories will become useless and your opponent may surrender. Otherwise you know where your opponent.

Place your 4th pick on a counter if it didn't work. It is rare but the triple-pick may be isolated and you can't deny it in first turn.

If so, you have two choices :

- Take pick that will allow to uncover 2-3 territories and hope your large stack will break the territory.

- Place your pick on a supporting territory and stack. The further your pick is, the better. Your opponent may try to use his left-overs and production boost to take the next large territory that can be taken in two turns.


Scenario : Double Triple-Picks.

Choice 1 :

Place 2 picks on one *triple-pick* and place your 2 other picks on the second *triple-pick*.

You are likely to break both double triple-picks while expanding safely on your last pick on a small territory. You can decide to use an abandon but it is risky.

The problem is that you may end up with two odds territories on each side with your opponent waiting outside.

Choice 2 :

Try all your 1s,2s,3s on one the best triple-pick and use your leftovers on the second triple-pick. You can use your 2s or 3s on the second triple-pick if you feel lucky. If the odds are favorable, you will end up with a triple-pick and you may break your opponent's triple-pick at the same time.

Even if you didn't break your opponents, you have equal production roughly. Beware of counters !

Choice 3 :

Use counters and try to isolate your opponent. If you break both your opponent's triple-pick using a strange *4th* territory that is connected to triple-pick, you are lucky and may stall his production long enough to take a bonus on turn 4-5. The strategy is risky.

You can try to isolate your opponent by killing supports around triple-pick and out-playing him. When a large stack is chasing your near a triple-pick, your opponent may try to take some bonuses on the way. It will soften his stack. The strategy is to take the his second bonus by surprise while he does and try to conquer a territory in the triple-pick if you can.

The best is to use two counters in this situation. You can by example hold any bonus he tries to hold or build a second stack in secret to break his only bonus.

It usually a lost game if your opponent has his two triple-picks and keeps them long enough.

Choice 4 :

Make double picks and expand to make the most use of leftovers. You can arrive with equal production if the timing is right or slightly more.

Your bonuses may be spread out while your opponent's are all in the same place in a corner. You need to play well and use a good counter or make strategical strikes. Cards are useful and you can make strategical attacks. It is usually best to use just enough armies you need while stacking some 3,4,5 on your most vulnerable territory or likely to be attacked.


Supportive territories :

TO BE DONE.
4 and 5 start picking strategies: 4/4/2015 03:30:02

Nauzhror 
Level 56
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"Depends to much on settings, otherwise do 1 and 2 close to each other and 3 - 5 further away from 1 and 2 as well as picks 3 - 5 being near to each other.

This post will be blanked after a whole week, from now, as an attempt to hide my strategy."

But, I really wanted to copy the strategies of a 1400 rated 1v1 player. I was going to use them as part of my study on mice since I figure such players and mice have a lot in common regarding the way they process data.
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