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Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 12:16:09


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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This is a public service announcement for new players, if you want to know how to play, and who to learn from, look at the 1v1 ladder. Even if you dont play 1v1 (and you definitely should) that is the place to go and see how a turn is orchestrated. If you are playing any of the europe maps, FFAs and big US maps that I see when I accidently stray into the dark forgotten lands of the open games tab, then you should cut that out. It isnt as much fun as you think it is, and it certainly isnt helping you improve.

TL;DR find the "autogame" and join it, ignore everything else.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 12:37:36

Qi 
Level 55
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If that were true you'd be active on the 1v1 ladder. If there were a good 3v3 Europe ladder I'd be teammates with 2 others who rock the casbah and we'd never leave the ladder or first place.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 12:49:22


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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Playing the ladder means games with players of all ability levels. I would rather invite players to multiday games i set up myself than wait to bump into them on the ladder. New players wont know who to invite, and wont have any specific goals to aim for, so i recommend the ladder.

The way the ladder rates us is very biased towards players with fewer games, so staying on the ladder long term, and have more than 20 complete games at a time is a serious handicap. I spent months on the ladder, ranked in the top 3, and it was much fun and my play improved a ton. Staying long term at number 1 is not feasible, whether youre on a team with myhand to hold your hand or not, under the current system.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 13:13:15


Aranka 
Level 43
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Translation of dead piggy:

- Me is significantly better in ladder games then other games
- Piggy wants to be acknowledged
- Piggy wants everyone to think ladder is very important
- Piggy promotes ladder game
- Piggy thinks people will like him now
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 13:17:56

Qi 
Level 55
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I disagree. The number of players who know how to cooperate efficiently with teammates and dominate in team games is less than the number of players who can win alone. Why? Team games involve all the skills needed in 1v1s plus a greater understanding of team dynamics, balance of power dynamics, a sense of geostrategic equilibrium, meta-strategies and longer term strategies, more sophisticated game theory contingencies and options and psychological warfare. Most importantly, you need bigger balls: the way you pussyfoot in 1v1s doesn't fly in 3v3s. You gotta know when to throw your punches.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 13:42:24


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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3v3 is not about cooperation, you dont need 3 different people to be playing the 3 accounts on a team. Cooperating with other players on a team when playing 1v1 is the same thing. Team games dont involve all the skills of a 1v1 because the standard of play is so low in 3v3. 3v3 players can skate by, never needing to learn how to properly make use of leftovers, how to calculate a few turns in advance, how to pick with an inbalanced map because there is always someone looking over their shoulder, and someone else to blame when they lose.

Why are you saying 1v1 doesnt involve long term or meta strategy or psychological warfare when you know that it does?
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 14:17:15


[WM] แต€แดดแดฑ๐“•๐“ป๐“ฒ๐“ญ๐“ฐ๐“ฎ 
Level 59
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Dead piggy - other than what gui said there's a big difference between 1v1 and 3v3: When you play 3v3 of course you don't require different people but you have to manage 3 different accounts playing on one side, which means there is not one global income for the whole team, but every teammate has his own, and his unique role based on his position (sometimes a player with practically no income is as important as the one with dominant income, but their playstyle and strategies will be much different). Micromanagement, and counting leftovers? You must be joking! Of course that matters! a lot! In 1v1 players also can skate by never needing to learn the proper use of leftovers etc, but those will never be very good at neither 1v1 nor 3v3.. Picking is much different in both types of game (visible more in full or cities distribution than warlords) - in 1v1 picking due to simplicity and low number of picks, often has to be fully analyzed with all the possible outcomes calculated, in 3v3 on the other hand, you cannot simply pick full mirror, or calculate. there are very many variations, and each player has to pick to build up a synergy between teammates. Many picking spots are extremely good, or practically useless depending on both team's position. It IS about cooperation all the way from picking stage to choosing the advanced long term strategies..

I think your biased, and sort of ignorant point of view is because you play mostly 1v1s, you are very proficient in it, and you might be frustrated, how much the skillset differs - resulting in the fact that there are better 3v3 players out there than you are, who at the same time are horrible in 1v1.. Furthermore your false accusations towards 3v3 games in general are often based on the FACT that many 3v3 games have a team leader who wants to dictate the exact picks and moves to all of the teammates. Of course we know such people, but that does not mean the 3v3 games require less. It only means that not every teammate has to be expert because as long as the boottime allows, and as far as the less skilled teammate is willing to comply, then other teammates CAN help him. that doesn't mean he's good in 3v3.. he might be succesful, but he's not a good player. To be good, you need skill. Same amount if not more than in 1v1. just a different set. face it..
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 14:43:06


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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I dont think there is a very different skill set for team set ups. Picking is much more sophisticated in 1v1, and in 3v3 you need to account for each teammate having a unique role. Fairly trivial. The real difference is the standard of play, and the accountability.

"you cannot simply pick full mirror" Tell that to Gnuffone and Sze ehehehe.

my biased ignorant point of view is based on 500 3v3 games, and seeing a ton of 3v3 specialist (a very grand term for most team game players) and a ton of ladder/autogame players. Ladder/autogame players are better, in every respect.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 14:44:52

Qi 
Level 55
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what 1v1s have in the strategies i mentioned, 3v3s have more advanced versions. that's all. 1v1s are all about fixed patterns for the first 10 turns. memorize and recognize these patterns and you don't have to think much. eg, when i helped niko to memorize certain patterns, he jumped to #1. in 1v1s, turns 10+ are where the skill is. impaller's words (more or less) to me on this subject: "when i was on top of the ladder i knew that if i was still more or less even with my opponent on turn 8, the game was over bc i would outplay him and win." 3v3s usually require creative moves immediately. and the team picks (especially in cities) aren't as limited as 1v1 ME picking.

so, piggy, you found a fixed style that works and you repeat that style again and again in your 1v1 ME games. it's pattern based. repetition makes perfect. 3v3s have patterns too but they arelless fixed. there are more contingencies and thus more options in both picking and playing. this is why there are fewer great 3v3 playerrs. the nuances and subtleties aren't as obvious as they are in 1v1s.

if you disagree, do an experiment. it took sze, myhand, gnuff and me about 2 months of focused attention on 1v1 gamesbbefore we were good enough to reach #1 on the 1v1 ladder. can you become a great 3v3 europe player in 2 months? if you can do it significantly quicker, 1v1 ME is the more complicated game. if you can't, 3v3 europe is.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 15:05:55


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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Oh please. Niko got number one because there was noone else at the top at that time, and he held it for a few games. He is now...not near the top. Did he forget the patterns? Or did he get lucky?

"piggy, you found a fixed style that works and you repeat that style again and again in your 1v1 ME games. it's pattern based." No. Would you like to go into more detail about exactly what those patterns are? I think you mistake a deeper level of understanding for simply recognising and repeating patterns. Why do I (and other strat 1v1 specialists) do so well at other similar templates, but different maps? ie. seasonal ladders.

I am deeply offended that you dont consider me a great 3v3 player Qi. What does one have to do to earn that title?
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 15:14:11

Fizzer 
Level 58

Warzone Creator
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Niko got number one because there was noone else at the top at that time

Isn't that, by definition, true about everyone who's ever held #1?
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 15:22:39


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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Haha, yes. I meant there was noone else good making a ladder run at that time. He didnt have any serious competition.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 15:28:38


ps 
Level 60
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I am deeply offended that you dont consider me a great 3v3 player Qi. What does one have to do to earn that title?


http://www.tpolm.org/~ps/wl_clot/eastasia3vs3random/

;)
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 16:26:11

Qi 
Level 55
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nice one ps. i amddeeply offended that you said the seasonal ladders are different. don't you see that fizzer is like a kung fu master training you all to become better 1v1 players by slightly changing the settings. he's keepingyou in your comfort zones (1v1 ME and maps with similar approaches as ME) but giving you a chance to find your inner grasshopper?
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 16:31:53


Ironheart
Level 53
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This thread would not exist if piggy was terrible at 1v1.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 18:06:43


[WM] Anonymous 
Level 52
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it took sze, myhand, gnuff


You just affirmed Myhand reached n1??? Now we want to know which one was his alter.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 18:14:19


[WM] Gnuffone 
Level 60
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eheh, is a secret, sorry.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 18:19:38


Aranka 
Level 43
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I look down on you because youre telling everyone youre a girl and acting girly for attention. Youre a girl, I get it, stop talking about it you self absorbed brat.


I lost respect for dead piggy for even though you're good at 1vs1 you love telling others of it and crave attention because of it. You know how to play this game,I get it, so stop whining and blattering about it you arrogant prick.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 21:02:35


AquaHolic 
Level 55
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it took sze, myhand, gnuff and me about 2 months of focused attention on 1v1 gamesbbefore we were good enough to reach #1 on the 1v1 ladder.[\i]

The reason for that is because you had at least 600 3v3 Europe games under your belt.

I think 3v3 (not necessarily Europe) in general is more complex than 1v1 (and i played 757 1v1s, and 1120 3v3s). Most of the tactics in 1v1s (like Gui pointed out) are present in 3v3s. However, in 3v3s, you also have to contend with other factors, most significantly, teammates, most of which are already discussed.

3v3 players can skate by, never needing to learn how to properly make use of leftovers, how to calculate a few turns in advance, how to pick with an inbalanced map because there is always someone looking over their shoulder, and someone else to blame when they lose. [\i]

That is true if you are playing with noobs. Go join Gnuff's or Psy's 3v3s and the intensity level will be much greater.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 21:03:09


AquaHolic 
Level 55
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fuck, why is it all italic?
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 21:29:49


[WM] แต€แดดแดฑ๐“•๐“ป๐“ฒ๐“ญ๐“ฐ๐“ฎ 
Level 59
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you wrote "\" instead of "/" in [ /i] italics closing thinggy
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 21:43:12


Gnullbegg 
Level 49
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[/i] :P
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 21:44:02


Gnullbegg 
Level 49
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damnit i hate when i don't refresh my tabs and this happens
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/11/2013 23:43:05

Widzisz • apex 
Level 60
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Each element of the game (picking, move order, possible outcomes, options, etc) is far less predictable and thus controllable in 3vs3 than in 1vs1.

It took me less than 500 1vs1 games to get above average in 1vs1 games.
With over 700 team games I still play like shit in team games.

Team games are harder to learn than 1vs1, but 1vs1 is far more competitive field to play.

Don't say that with proper teammates you can win above 90% of 3vs3 games, or held 1st spot of 3vs3 ladder for ages, that's easy if you have little competition.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/12/2013 00:15:20


Níðhöggr
Level 14
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3v3 europe cities tournament: http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TournamentID=4521

1v1 ME players are welcome to join
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/12/2013 03:46:17

fwiw 
Level 59
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Piggy, you might just be bad at non-1v1 games. I learn more from FFA's than I do in 1v1's. Keeping track of multiple players is more difficult. I consider myself more of a versatile player than anything else. To be able to handle yourself in any situation, you really need to play a bit of everything.

1v1's are great, but eventually there isn't much more to learn and it just comes down to luck. The fate of a large number of my 1v1's come down to OP/OD cards being played by both players at the same crucial time. I've lost games I should have won, and won games I should have lost. There is an element of luck in all games, but much more room to learn in games with more players.

I think that learning curve is more relative to how people play than what they play. I go through the history in any game that I lose, whereas most players shrug it off move onto the next. If you want to get better, just work at it and question what your opponents did differently than you which enabled them to win. There is no point in being good if the only reason you are good is from habitually playing the same thing over and over. You should want to be able to handle yourself in any gametype/map.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/12/2013 04:06:10


À la recherche du temps perdu 
Level 35
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"Piggy, you might just be bad at non-1v1 games." I'm not.
"eventually there isn't much more to learn" Lets be honest...neither of us has reached that point.

I agree with that last paragraph, and I think 1v1 lends itself to learning much better ( as well as being more fun).

I cant believe noone agrees with me, oh well, I guess Im wrong.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/12/2013 04:18:38


The King of Carrot Flowers
Level 2
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whoopsie daisies
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/12/2013 07:22:44

DagenDaDragon (ReTIRED OF WARLIGHT) 
Level 34
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why does it matter what the master race is?
Why does it matter how you can be the best?
Why does it matter what settings you play?
Just cause you are all smart, know how to form long drawn out arguments, doesn't mean you have to get so far away from the point of warlight. Not as a competitive sport, but as a game. If you want to compete, all the power to you, if you want to be the best, all the power to you. However stop generalizing and most of all PUTTING DOWN everyone who doesn't think and see it how you see it, whether they post or not.
I'm sorry but you are all taking this just a little to seriously. There are to many Ego's people cant post without bringing in there ego's and epeens and showing off the winrates or ladder stats. Though it is nice when there are threads dedicated to these things, so it has a hope of not spilling out into every facet of the forum.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you are saying/showing where the real competitive play is. I just found it very egotistical and rather rude to everyone who doesn't play warlight for the thrill of a 2 day plan coming to fruition, but rather play it for that lulz when you make a mistake causing a FFA to descend into chaos. or the 2v2v2, 17 FFA or 8V2V4. Point is warlight has all these crazy settings that can be abused. but people seem to forget that and keep trying to make the next strategic 1v1 Map or the new most prestigious league.
Strat 1v1 Players Are The Master Race Of WL: 4/12/2013 09:10:07


Ribena 
Level 56
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Interesting thread. I can see both sides. I'm a much better team player than an individual one. Why? Because i spend a lot of time discussing overall strategy with my team, play unselfishly and recognise the importance of position. Thats a skill in itself.

I get beaten 1v1 by players who spend more time considering picks & expansion/countering strategy than i do. Thats also a skill. 2v2 is a balance between the two.


I know a lot of very good 1v1 players who i struggle in a team with, namely because they are focused on their on growth and not the health of the team or disrupting the opponent.


I suppose it boils down to what you want to achieve from the game. Personally, i enjoy sharing a victory rather than an individual one, but thats just me!
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