... why the whole discussion about re-balancing artifacts was pointless!

I appreciate that Fizzer implements new features on a somewhat regular basis. I really do. I play other (browser) games where whole teams of developers aren't capable of delivering the same amount of updates that Fizzer does as a "one-man business". And - apart from the fact that I'm not really into the competitive aspect of WZ (or other games in general) - the Clan Wars update seems pretty well-thought-out. I've read the whole blog post and you can absolutely see that this wasn't a hastily implemented project but that there definitely was some large amount of planning before adding this new game mode.

My only problem is that we just discussed how to make WZI more "fun" (I still wouldn't use this term because fun is highly subjective) or fair towards non-swappers (players who don't go the extra mile to min/max the effects of artifacts by swapping them in and out before and after certain actions). Now, one might ask how a game mode that mostly (if not solely) focuses on WZC can affect WZI. Well... In general, it can't. But Clan Wars rewards its participants with totally overpowered benefits over anyone not able (or willing) to compete on the (classic WZ) competitive level or not able to get into a clan with similar motivation (I assume you won't be able to achieve any significant rewards if you are the only member of your clan (participating) - ignoring that this would at first cost you a significant amount of coins).

If WZI was completely a single-player game mode, this again would be no problem at all. But when we discussed artifacts it was all about WZIB. If players that frequently swap artifacts can get an advantage over those who don't, then the ones not swapping will have less "fun"/chance in WZIB. And now we have a game mode that not only indirectly but directly destroys the balance in WZIB by granting more APs per idle level, reducing the attacks in WZIB, and other (more indirect) boosts.

I doubt that Clan Wars was Fizzer's reaction to us not being able to agree on fairer artifacts. Clan Wars - as I said - probably required a lot of planning. And I suspect that this only started after the artifact discussion ended without any results. And I don't want to get rid of this new feature. I just want to draw attention to the fact that this will probably have an even larger effect than artifacts ever could have. Assuming I don't participate in the new Clan Wars (for whatever reason), I will have a hard time upgrading my advancements in order to compensate for e.g. reduced WZIB attacks that other players might benefit from. No matter how good I min/max my artifacts!

I am playing Idle alone, not going for pvp, battles or automated stuff and such. Playing in my own pace, idling as I prefer and happy with it. :D
Whether my clan members will bring us super bonuses for idle or not, it is still and idle game. :)

I just want to draw attention to the fact that this will probably have an even larger effect than artifacts ever could have

Is the subtext/implication here that the "fairness"/"fun" discussion on the nerfing passive artifacts thread should not be interpreted as sincere because it's totally inconsistent with the priorities in 5.10? And that the nerfing artifacts/making WZI "fun" stuff was just a pretext for making WZI not a better game but a better revenue generator? If not, I don't really understand what point you're making here.

As far as WZIB goes, how much does this really disrupt the balance? We'll find out in a bit, I suppose, but my understanding is that WZIB is already a lotto where any edge you gain throughout the battle will be outweighed or cancelled by others noticing you're in the lead and directing their attacks toward you. It's like if every player in Mario Kart had an endless supply of blue shells.

Is the subtext/implication here that the "fairness"/"fun" discussion on the nerfing passive artifacts thread should not be interpreted as sincere because it's totally inconsistent with the priorities in 5.10? And that the nerfing artifacts/making WZI "fun" stuff was just a pretext for making WZI not a better game but a better revenue generator? If not, I don't really understand what point you're making here.

The problem with any lines we draw between this new update and the discussion about artifacts is, that Fizzer pretty much stated the question about nerfing, then commented a few times about details but never came clear about his intentions with artifacts in the first place. So, no, I don't want to point out that the previous discussion had a wrong focus. I believe that is WAS indeed about fun - or Fizzer's interpretation of fun - and that he had envisioned something else when it comes to artifacts. And as the creator he can totally do so and criticize any wrong ways we (ab)use his creation. I (and others) just felt that there has to be a deeper problem than just "fun". Because if there wasn't a WZIB and idle was just yet another idle game (to have some fun or waste some time between WZC matches) the power level of several artifacts wouldn't really matter. It's only when WZIB is concerned that artifacts matter a lot (more). Only when my single player APs influence how many BPs I can earn, it becomes relevant how much artifacts can improve your AP income (and yes, to me WZIB seems pretty much lottery-like, you would have to be almost on top of every advancement to consistently win battles). But at the time we got to this point, the whole discussion was closed down.

I don't think that this update is about revenue. I can't really see new ways to make money here that don't already exist. I don't assume that (WZI) players will create new clans in order to compete in Clan Wars if they weren't already active WZC players and therefore (probably) already are in some clans. I rather see this update as an incentive or encouragement to break apart the old clan system. Because those larger clans definitely are handicapped. Or rather the members of those clans, the ones in particular that aren't among the first 40 to try a Clan Wars match. Still, larger clans have the advantage that the members can switch, in one Clan Wars iteration some will play for the clan and if any of them don't have much time in the next iteration, other clan members will just take their spot. Smaller clans (and their members) will have to play much more regularly.

To be quite honest, I took my time to not let my post sound like a rant, but you wouldn't be totally wrong if you called it so. From time to time I check the blog for any new updates. And today I saw this blog post and my initial thought was, that this update is more about reducing the "fun" (to use the same term again) for the average WZIB player than nerfing artifacts ever could have been. The thing here is, everyone could adopt the swapping-technique, but you can't just out of the sudden become a top tier WZC player to also get those precious (territory-related) benefits. And as I tried to address in my initial post, I don't believe that Fizzer introduced this new game mode (only) to counteract artifact swapping by presenting options to non-swappers to gain even more benefits. To conclude, there was no underlying intention to criticize anyone or anything. I just felt that I should put my observation out to the public. Especially because there are Clan Wars rewards (the reduced battle attacks in particular) that could easily cause some frustration if someone notices that the attacked players don't suffer as much pushback from attacks than they would if someone aims their attacks at this person. I mean, 20% isn't a lot, but that still means that five attacks only feel like four. So, if someone with this benefit joins WZIB it even more depends on who each and everyone of the players focus their attacks on, than it depends currently. Or in other words, if you are in the lead with this benefit and the others don't "agree" on attacking you, you might be able to consistently win a lot more than today. Then, all your advancements would be almost useless if you don't have this benefit.

To make this crystal clear, I appreciate a new game mode being rolled out. Not everyone will participate but that's normal. Some might ask for the menu entry not to blink, just like some with the auto-conquer advancement will never play WZIB (again) and would therefore prefer there not to be a battle icon twice per hour.

That you can earn coins this way is just the way WZ works. You can earn them several ways and everyone is free to participate in any subset of the offered ways (like lottery game, some love them. some would never risk their coins for those games). Giving away powers and artifacts is just another way or how the raffles work. If I had to name one thing that I personally would change immediately, then this would be the territory related rewards as they seem pretty much imbalanced to how WZI idle works right now.

PS: However, I LOVE the digging speed-up thing. Even though I will probably never have it, there will finally be a chance to reduce digging times. And this can't really screw up any WZIB matches.

Edited 3/12/2021 19:49:36

my question is, should we be starting an idle player's clan? I'm a decent wzc player. never understood the point of clans before, but if it got me some artifacts, I'll sign up.

my question is, should we be starting an idle player's clan?

Possibly, because there's currently no clan afaict that really offers much to Idle players (beyond the new Clan Wars benefits). But the Idle benefits from Clan Wars are predicated on WZC skill, not WZI skill. So Clan Wars will effectively give WZI rewards to clans with motivated WZC players.

The benefits of Clan Wars imo are marginal if you do not play Idle (you have a chance at 50 or 250 coins each season, and that's if you're in one of the top 2 clans- which you have to depend on 39 other people for), and imo unless the Clan Wars template is something you like, Clan Wars is not worth going out of your way to play. WZI players otoh benefit a lot more (as OP points out, in possibly meta-breaking ways). It's like giving bird-watching rewards to the winners of a chess tournament.

Edited 3/13/2021 04:47:49

More problems with Idle prizes for a Classic tournament...

just play and have fun, advantage is also for those who can just buy coins. just play on your pace and don't worry bout others.

my question is, should we be starting an idle player's clan?

If someone makes one (or: if we find a significant amount of idle players such that we actually have a chance to earn something), I'm totally in. Not for the ranking rewards (only because I assume we won't have a high chance on this scale) but because some of the territory related rewards sound quite nice (to have). Personally, I wouldn't join an existing clan just to play Clan Wars, because most (if not all) clans would require some form of WZC participation. A clan with the sole purpose of "let's try to earn some Clan Wars rewards" (in a quite casual way) would probably be the best approach to make Clan Wars eventually bring WZI players into WZC in general. And, according to the blog post, in later Clan Wars iterations there might even be idle related matches that we WZI players could be really good at. ;)

ossibly, because there's currently no clan afaict that really offers much to Idle players (beyond the new Clan Wars benefits). But the Idle benefits from Clan Wars are predicated on WZC skill, not WZI skill. So Clan Wars will effectively give WZI rewards to clans with motivated WZC players.

The benefits of Clan Wars imo are marginal if you do not play Idle (you have a chance at 50 or 250 coins each season, and that's if you're in one of the top 2 clans- which you have to depend on 39 other people for), and imo unless the Clan Wars template is something you like, Clan Wars is not worth going out of your way to play. WZI players otoh benefit a lot more (as OP points out, in possibly meta-breaking ways). It's like giving bird-watching rewards to the winners of a chess tournament.

Yep, while CW is supposed to draw more WZI players to WZC, I doubt that will happen.

For a start, players need to be in a clan, which WZI players dont tend to be (since they take up a space of the 40 member cap without offering much to the clan).
On top of that, as a clan you need to win as much games as possible, and losing gives another clan a win. Taking this to the extreme, it means that even if a clan has less than 40 active members, some still shouldn't play cause it gives other clans a win. To maximize rewards only players that will win the majority of their games should play.

That naturally causes good WZC players to be much more suitable to play in CW, while it is meant to bring WZI players to Classic.