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3v3 Europe: 8/6/2014 01:38:14


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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Those familiar with the template, I would appreciate your thoughts on these two games http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=6708950
http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=6635932

And if the thread is popular I will share my point of view and the team chat from the games, if it furthers the discussion.

Edited 8/6/2014 01:38:58
3v3 Europe: 8/6/2014 03:08:59


Norman 
Level 57
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Hello

In my oppinion the europe map isn't overly complex. Especially looking at game 1 I can give 2 simple rules what not to do:

- Rule 1: Never go for a counterpick when your counter can't stand on his own. Stong position pick --> yes, Counterpick --> no. Only countering with those super late picks can be fine.
- Rule 2: Don't go for a crazy combo involving more than 2 picks.

Reason for for those rules: You will in all likelihood counter yourself or your teammate. The outcome of picks is too unpredictable. If your counter works your opponent probably knows you are there so you gain nothing. If you go for picks that only work as a combo you will probably lose 1 of those picks.

And as a result what to do when picking: Just turn off your brain and go for those delicious fast and safe bonuses. Game 1 is a classic example where it worked out just fine for Voodoo and dead piggy. The little picking teamwork around Slovakia / Hungary also helped although I'm not sure if this combo maybe only worked because of weak opponent picks.

First turn denmark and uncountered --> clear number 1 pick. Islands --> Pick 2 and 3. Rest to best center picks + best russia picks and wait for the outcome.
3v3 Europe: 8/6/2014 03:50:22

JSA 
Level 59
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Thanks for reposting my private message to you myhand. While I'm kinda upset you did that, I'm kinda glad you did. My message is so full of arrogance, and yet I didn't even realize it until I heard it posted back to me. It takes real talent to sound extremely arrogant while asking someone for advice :) Next time I sound arrogant, just tell me, JSA stfu. I'll make an effort to be more humble though.

Game 1: I assume Mulva is being played by Piggy this game? The Southwestern Russia is an interesting idea, one I haven't ever seen used by a 3v3 Europe player that played well. It's a shame Gnuffone stole your Western Russia pick; it would have been cool to see how it played out if you had gotten WC Russia/Western Russia/Southwestern Russia, especially with the Germany counter. Interesting settings this game as well. 0% WR with 4 starting armies. Usually I've seen it 0% SR with 4 starting armies or 0% WR with 5 starting armies. A bit unlucky that myhand is the player that ends up with Southwestern France. Better for Team B if Gnuffone or Marquis had ended up with it I think. Voodoo plays gutsier than Gnuffone in the islands on turn 2; it ends up working well for Team A. To me it looks like if Gui had played it safe, or if Gnuffone had played riskier, the game might have ended up quite differently. Nice prediction by Gui that Gnuffone would not hit, and I like his use of delay moves to minimize the losses in case Gnuffone does hit. Cool game; show me more!

Game 2: 3 picks instead of 4 is weird, and once again, not a variation I have more than 1-2 games on. Piggy is spread too thin this game. 3 Team A players in the islands vs only Piggy. And with Piggy's third pick in Bulgaria, he won't get a bonus unless he can sneak Iceland, which he does manage (although he is broken longterm). Nice game again.

Norman, I think you are right to a degree. I think there are many scenerios which make different picks worth more and others worth less, which is the hard part of 3v3 Europe. Top players vs good player's picks can look similar, but have very different results, and end with the team with top players having an easy win off picks while the team with good players wonders how they ended up in such bad shape off picks. For instance, I lost one game the other day because my teammate put his 1/2 in the wrong order (it was UK, Iceland in this scenerio). That slight mistake allowed an opponent to have 12 income after turn 2, and gave the opposing team the win. If the 1/2 order had been switched, my team would have likely won the game.

Edited 8/6/2014 03:58:24
3v3 Europe: 8/6/2014 04:22:45


Norman 
Level 57
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Nah... all standard. Standard picks of Voodoo and standard gameplay of Voodoo turn 2 and 3. Move along, nothing to see here. Those standard delays turn 3 weren't in case of a Gnuffone attack (which would have happened first order) but to give Gnuffone the opportunity to move his armies away.

Southwestern Russia isn't standard and is bad. Germany counter also isn't standard and is bad.
3v3 Europe: 8/6/2014 04:39:28

JSA 
Level 59
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If he gets the Southwestern Russia combo, he gets 10 income after turn 2 and can potentially wreck havaoc in the center with his germany pick. I personally would not pick it, but I can understand and respect his reasoning behind it.

And what you call standard play from voodoo is standard, yes. Standard for a good player. Warlight is a game decided by mistakes most of the time. There usually is no outstanding move that at least 10 other players would have thought of in that situation. Warlight is about consistency. So by doing standard play, his moves are the best options and he is not making any mistakes, which is a good thing.

That said, you seem to have a better head for the game than most. Few players I have seen understand the basics of 3v3 Europe even after playing the template for a while. I didn't understand the basics very well (pick islands, then good center and Russia picks, then outside picks, etc.) until I started playing 3v3 Europe realtimes last winter. The finer pojnts of Europe still give me trouble sometimes. Those are mostly gained by experience I think.
3v3 Europe: 8/6/2014 04:44:42


Vulpes
Level 56
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Edited 8/9/2014 04:51:43
3v3 Europe: 8/6/2014 04:58:15


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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"Southwestern Russia isn't standard and is bad. Germany counter also isn't standard and is bad." Yeah, I should have known better. Jsa youre absolutely right that that was the plan. It was too carefully laid and too fragile. krasnodar is not a 3rd pick in any europe distribution, Hessen is not a 4th pick in any europe distribution. Any plan that requires both is clearly flawed. The top 2 picks are quite good together though, and my rule that if 2 of the 3 in a triple pick work well as a double then dont triple it holds true.
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