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MH17: 7/18/2014 13:57:02


Aranka 
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Would just like to know what the opinions are about the MH17 plane crash in Ukraine territory controlled by separists in which 298 people were killed through the shooting of SA5 or BAC anti air missiles.

Is the ukranian government responsible or was it done by seperatist forces with backing from the Kremlin ??
What stance should western countries take on Russia if it is indeed proven true that Russian seperatists shot down this plane ??

Finally, I would like to give condolences to the families of all those who have passed away while on their flight to Kuola Lumpur
MH17: 7/18/2014 14:26:39


Odin 
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Still some uncertainty as to what happened, for instance if the plane flew off course or not.

Either Kremlin or the Ukrainian government having planned this is hard to believe. They have nothing to gain by shooting down a civilian plane of Malaysian Airlines. In any case, shooting down a civilian plane is crass irresponsibility at least.

I don't know if this will have much impact on Western-Russian relations, they are ice-cold already.
MH17: 7/18/2014 14:42:18


Aranka 
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I agree that no one would have planned anything like this......

What I was referring to was that the air systems used might have been used after they had mistaken it for a plane of a different identity or purpose.
This argument, that no one would benefit from it, makes it more logical that the plane was shot down by Russian seperatists in Ukraine since they would lack access to a large aviation database required to recognize this plane as a commercial liner.

Furthermore it is not uncertain that the plane flew off course or not since both Geneve convenions and Malaysian airlines have already admitted that this was a normal flight route and that it was not against the Aviation territorial warning zones since they flew at a height of more then 33 000 feet at the moment the missle struck
MH17: 7/18/2014 15:01:40


Odin 
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I think it is most likely that a Ukrainian separatist or Russian volunteer is responsible, and that they mistook it for a Ukrainian military cargo plane. An East Ukrainian separatist leader told in social media that they had shot down a Ukranian cargo plane, but he deleted that message later.

According to New York Times, Russia had closed the flight route up to 32 000 feet that the MH17 used just hours earlier. Possibly the separatists didn't have a way to determine the flight altitude.

Edited 7/18/2014 15:02:39
MH17: 7/18/2014 15:03:22


Aranka 
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To prevent any confusion here the seperatists in Ukraine have pro russian tendencies right, so let's just call them pro russian seperatists in Ukraine
MH17: 7/18/2014 15:04:06


ChrisCMU 
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I think it is an awful tragedy for the people and families. Also not a good year for airline (it was theirs that went missing in ocean, right?).

I agree with Odin, seems impossible that either government would have done it, even by accident. I am no radar expert, but wouldn't you be able to tell it was a commercial airliner and not a fighter/bomber?

My guess would be rebels that want Russia to invade shot it down to create an excuse for Russia to sweep in.
MH17: 7/18/2014 15:12:21


myhandisonfire 
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This argument, that no one would benefit from it, makes it more logical that the plane was shot down by Russian seperatists in Ukraine since they would lack access to a large aviation database required to recognize this plane as a commercial liner.


That is a fallacy. A lot of know-how is requiered to operate a sophisticated SAM system like a BUK. These systems are no man pads, you can not learn that over night. Furthermore its not the first incident of an accidental downing of a civilian airliner. In fact the Ukrainians themselves shot down flight 1812 of Siberia Airlines in 2001.

It is quite possible that either side shot down that plane accidentally. An airvictory of a military An-26 was claimed at the same date and time by the seperatists. Quite possible they confused the plane with a civilian one, or shot several missles, downing the military transporter and the surviving missles locked on a new target, the malaysian civilian flight.

But it also possible that the Ukranian side is responsible for the incident, so nobody should be hasty in attributing blame until it has been throughfully investigated, if that will ever happen.

Edited 7/18/2014 15:14:13
MH17: 7/18/2014 15:32:34


myhandisonfire 
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Possibly the separatists didn't have a way to determine the flight altitude.


A BUK system has the ability to determine altitude of the plane.

I am no radar expert, but wouldn't you be able to tell it was a commercial airliner and not a fighter/bomber?


Depends on the resolution of the RADAR system, but i doubt the BUK could easily tell the difference of similiar mass , similiar shape objects. They could tell the difference between a supersonic lower mass fighter and a large and slow transporter, but a military transporter and a civilian passenger jet, most likely no.



My guess would be rebels that want Russia to invade shot it down to create an excuse for Russia to sweep in.


How would that give Russia an excuse to sweep in? What fox news BS is that? The reverse would be more true, a plane shot down by ukraine and attributed to the seperatist would shift a lot of public support back to the Ukraine.

Neither side wants to lose the media war in the Ukraine.

Edited 7/18/2014 15:33:32
MH17: 7/18/2014 15:40:31


ChrisCMU 
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Well, my thinking is the more the area is deemed unstable, the more likely Putin is to just go in and 'stabilize' it.
MH17: 7/18/2014 15:48:26


myhandisonfire 
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You mean Putin is learning from US example? Destabilize a country, discredit the opposition by doing it, then moving in on extreme costs, claim the ressources, provide extensive military aid, fuel the military complex, the megacooperations and the banks and have it all paid for by the US taxpayer?

Quite possible he read the CIA handbook on how to establish puppet regimes to exploit a country for the US plutocracy.
MH17: 7/18/2014 16:02:56


Ottoman Emperor 
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Israel? So people can focus on russia instead of Palestine. Playing with planes is a very easy game for them.

Hey putin. Leave us middle east. Take some from ukraine. Ok?
MH17: 7/18/2014 19:03:53


x 
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plane crashses ma,ke explosions which are cool. its also fun when they go missing because you can guess what happened to them then.
MH17: 7/18/2014 19:42:02


Vulpes
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Edited 8/9/2014 05:05:06
MH17: 7/18/2014 19:59:15


myhandisonfire 
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apparently the risk was considered low enough to not lower profits by taking more fuel on board and flying around ukraine
MH17: 7/18/2014 20:01:52


ChrisCMU 
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Not sure where you are from myhand (I think Germany, right?), but I love watching Jon Stewart rip on our foreign relations in middle east. We are pretty amazing at screwing up that region.
MH17: 7/18/2014 20:36:42


myhandisonfire 
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Yes, germany. And yes I enjoy Daily Show as well. In many countries mass media, the only thing close to real news and truthful journalism can only be presented in satirical formats.

"Policy is largely set by economic elites and organized groups representing business interests with little concern for public attitudes or public safety, as long as the public remains passive and obedient."
โ€• Noam Chomsky

Edited 7/18/2014 20:37:36
MH17: 7/19/2014 08:15:52


[WM] แต€แดดแดฑ๐“•๐“ป๐“ฒ๐“ญ๐“ฐ๐“ฎ 
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As for people who wonder if the aircraft was off its course - why should it matter? you just don't shoot down a civil a/c like that. there's a million of procedures - they have a permanent two-way radio communication to confirm reasons/intentions of the crew, they have procedures for radio-communication failure - ether one or both ways, they have intercepting procedures in case everything fails (you basically send a fighter jet to escort the aircraft who lost communication, and there is an international "language" of manuevers by the fighter which every certified pilot understands and complies to at sight). Only when you are sure the intentions are clearly terrorist, the crew does not comply with interceptors despite confirmed visual contact and it's to late for negotiations etc, they will CONSIDER taking the a/c down. - the above also applies for trespassing an active military area. You just don't shoot them at will. the military is aware that civil planes may have different failures and that no civil pilot would trespass such a zone knowingly.

Aranka - there is absolutely no chance to mistake a big passenger plane like B777-200 equipped with a regular operating ModS transponder, adsb, adsc, cpdlc and a couple of other fancy equipment they most likely had on board for a military plane. no chance whatsoever. You can mistake them using a primary surveillance, but an SSR radar gives more info - and the military for sure had access to civil flightplan database and ssr data. first of all - who would have flew a bomber squawking all the way? they use encrypted ID systems for missions.. It would be stupid to broadcast " hey, here's my squawk, flight level, speed, etc. i'm a military aircraft you don't have a flight plan for, and am here! look! i'm cooomiiiing!!"

"I am no radar expert, but wouldn't you be able to tell it was a commercial airliner and not a fighter/bomber?" - i'm not sure it has anything to do with resolution, myh. Although yes - the performance between a big passenger jet may be very same to that of a mil transport jet..

On a not-completely related note - I remember talking to the pilots of that flight every now and then when i was working at air traffic control. I know the crews change, but still It's disturbing when i remember MAS17 flying through our airspace, remember controlling it, and realizing it'll never show up again. You very easily get used to scheduled flight callsigns that you work with. Yesterday I was at a party with a few ATCos who controlled it's last flight.. believe me, even though there was no fault at all on their side, they are full of what-ifs.. It's like - what if i forced it to fly according to the full flight-plan route or lengthen his route due to bad weather ahead? what if i coordinated a bigger shortcut for him? he would have been flying those couple miles north/south from that spot, maybe it woulg be enough, maybe they would be still alive etc. That is a burden.. also being aware that people who you have been controlling and talking to a few minutes ago, have been shot down is a great deal - you start to think if you should or not reroute all the other planes entering that airspace, you are thinking if there was anything you could have done, etc while you have to remain completely unbiased, and concentrated to an extent people who never worked in ATC will most likely NEVER experience....

It's a big tragedy, and there is no excuse for those who've done that, regardless of who they were. They had to be aware it was a passenger liner.

my 0.02
MH17: 7/19/2014 09:04:25


[LN][EU] The Prussian
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Although I was not involved, a few years ago I took the very same plane and flight to Malaysia to get to New Zealand, So, it hit me hard when I found out.

It will most likely finish Malaysia airlines, 2 planes in 4 months, People will stop flying with them, and they have already been suffering a loss financially before both accidents. This could be the final act needed to kill them.

Edited 7/19/2014 09:04:37
MH17: 7/19/2014 09:44:28


Vulpes
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Edited 8/9/2014 05:05:14
MH17: 7/19/2014 10:10:31


[WM] แต€แดดแดฑ๐“•๐“ป๐“ฒ๐“ญ๐“ฐ๐“ฎ 
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True.. What i wrote is valid as long as we speak about authorities, not rebels..

However even a complete idiot can identify most planes with a simple smatphone app like flightradar24..

Edited 7/19/2014 12:05:49
MH17: 7/20/2014 01:39:32


JR727MD-11
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A big loss for the world and my country Australia and I've been crazily researching the how and why topics.

I feel devastated.
MH17: 7/20/2014 03:02:37

Good Kid 
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A big loss, for the world?

It's a huge loss for those people's families, absolutely, but 298 people is a completely insignificant number to the world as a whole.

We're talking 0.000004% of the worlds population, the same number of people die every three minutes.

If you spent more than three minutes caring about this then you're giving these people far more concern than you give to other people that die, which just seems weird, and bizarre. Why are they more important just because their deaths were sensationalized and publicized?
MH17: 7/20/2014 03:35:20


Red Menace
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Maybe Russia shot it down so they can pin it on the ukraine, or the other way around? idk just a thought
MH17: 7/20/2014 04:01:16

6th Army Group
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If you spent more than three minutes caring about this then you're giving these people far more concern than you give to other people that die, which just seems weird, and bizarre.


It's different. Other people who die don't get 24/7 coverage from CNN. Other people die more frequently, other people usually just seem like masses somewhere else far away starving in a hopeless situation. The thing is, I bet in an incident closer to you, you'd mourn and pay attention, but you don't spend all of your days in sorrow crying over those people dying by the minute. So don't act like you're above and beyond.
MH17: 7/20/2014 04:12:08

Good Kid 
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You're wrong. As an American I thought September 11th was a bunch of over-sensationalized bullshit as well.
MH17: 7/20/2014 07:05:24


The Great Pulsius 
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Dying of old age is commonplace, may I say boring.

Dying in a plane crash caused by Ukrainian rebels when the world is watching Ukraine is something special. Of course it gets reported.
MH17: 7/20/2014 14:36:16


Beren • apex 
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Of course I understand why it gets reported on. It's unusual and interesting. But the more salient point is that there's no reason this should be viewed as more tragic than the countless fatal automobile accidents that happen every day. It is tragic, but Good Kid was specifically responding to the statement that this was a big loss for the world.
MH17: 7/20/2014 16:20:24


MrOobling
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The difference is, it was PURPOSEFULLY done by another country to the nationality of the plane. It could be seen as a declaration of war if Russia did it and it could cause an official military invasion against pro Russian rebels in Ukraine (in my opinion, the chance that Ukraine did it is none).
MH17: 7/20/2014 18:07:45

An abandoned account
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First of all, it worth remembering that 298 people died before we start blaming either Russia or Ukraine. It must be a sad time for the friends and families of the people on board.

193 from the Netherlands (1 with dual US citizenship)
43 from Malaysia
27 from Australia
12 from Indonesia
10 from the UK (1 with dual South African citizenship)
4 from Belgium
4 from Germany
3 from the Philippines
1 from Canada
1 from New Zealand

Edited 7/20/2014 18:08:06
MH17: 7/20/2014 18:16:33


Aranka 
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What do you guys think of the pro russian seperatists in Ukraine using the deceased bodies as diplomatic bartering chips ??

The fact that they try to do everything to obstruct objective independent investigations seems to suggest the seperatists are indeed the guilty party in this case

I'm almost feeling for military intervention to just forcefully end these russian seperatists

Edit: At the least we should be allowed to send detachments of military troops and backing with longbow apache's in order to secure the safety of these international investigators in these areas

Edited 7/20/2014 18:17:42
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