Thanks Ekstone!

I really like that you expanded the finals to 16 Players. Not only because I have the opportunity to play now, but also because it makes the finals even more exciting and it also allows players who played a good year, but not in many tournaments, to qualify.

Your ideas already sound very detailed and good. Everything is well explained and considering there are only 16 guys who have to understand it, I think there won't be any misunderstandings (These guys are probably also motivated and invest 10 minutes in reading this).

So, my ideas:

- I can see why you want to give the higher seeded player more power in the picking/baning phase, this is fine. But player A is probably too "strong" there, he has the first pick, first ban and one pick more. If you want to leave it like that, I'm completely fine, but Maybe that's something to Think About.

- I have no opinion About whether the Event should give AWP Points. However, what Timi said isn't exactly true, in most Sports you have an Advantage from being last years winner, f.e. money you get for Winning trophies, that you can invest to build up a stronger Team for the next Season. However, I see why this is not exactly the same.

- When to start? Doesn't make sense to wait for the end of CL, Seasonal, Summer breaks, etc.pp. You can Always find a reason why Right now is a bad time. Just get it started asap. Also considering this is 2018 finals ;-)

- Picking / Banning could happen on a seperate Discord server. This should be fast and there is always someone online to "control" the process

Edited 5/6/2019 18:27:25

- I can see why you want to give the higher seeded player more power in the picking/baning phase, this is fine. But player A is probably too "strong" there, he has the first pick, first ban and one pick more. If you want to leave it like that, I'm completely fine, but Maybe that's something to Think About.

Being first to pick/ban is a disadvantage. If you pick the template your opponent wanted to pick, you're doing him a favor and he can pick/ban his 2nd choice. So it's better to move second.
But: choosing the final templates clearly is an advantage for the first player. So all in all, it balances very nicely. Letting the seeded player choose if he wants to go first or second is a great idea.

All players responded, and everyone said yes, so we have already 15 participants:
alexclusive, Styxie, Timi, Beren, MoD, malakkan, kicorse, Buns, JV, Rento, Quicksilver, AI, reakleader, FSG and Octane.

There is only one place left to fill, who will be the last one?
Muli or Reza?
The deciding game is running!
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=18525664
The winner will get the last spot!
Exciting! :)

--------------------------

Does this also apply to the pick/ban phase? And if so, how? It's a phase that has 10+ "turns". And I assume that players on vacation are exempt?

Good catch! And a good question, I didn't think about this yet.
Yes, the template ban/pick phase use turns, 10+, so it can be a problem (long time)
But wait, only important the first 4 ban/pick turns, because after those we will have two chosen templates, so I can create the first two games using those two and fight can start! So we have to manage four additional turns only, which is not a big deal, at least better than 10+ turns ;) Ban/pick turns can run with the same rules, 3 days boot and vacation allowed.

Picking / Banning could happen on a seperate Discord server. This should be fast and there is always someone online to "control" the process

I dunno why would be better a Discord server than even a simple forum topic.
Ok, you can see if the others online, and more interactive. So I see :)
But, we mainly need a rule about the pace of ban/pick phase, and booting if one of the players inactive.
And very important, we need a method that allows players to easy see that they are coming and their boot time is running out!

What about if I open a game for these ban/pick phases? With 3 days auto boots and vacation allowed settings. Invite the two players, and the boot time of the higher seeded players started, he have to choose between roles Player A and Player B and write his decision into the chat (if he chosen Player A then his first ban too!) and join to the game, and after that the boot time of the other player start, he have to write his first ban into the chat and join and commit immediately (without moves, the game itself not important only the boot time, it will vote to end), and again the higher seeded player's boot time will start, who write to the chat his first pick and double commit, and so on. Players check their games for sure but not everyone check the forum topics, and in this way the boot time is automated.
What do you think?

--------------------------

but also because it makes the finals even more exciting and it also allows players who played a good year, but not in many tournaments, to qualify.

This was (one of) my goal with this extended TOP16 participants! I mean, the Tour mainly for fun and now as a qualifier for the Tour Finals event, where the serious fights will start :) And reaching TOP16 with 2000 points is not a big deal for a good player, enough if he join and play on the 12 major events (enough if he won a Grand Slam actually :)), or win a few smaller events. So if somebody want to qualify into the main event, that is not an impossible mission (I mean not so time consuming).

--------------------------

But player A is probably too "strong" there, he has the first pick, first ban and one pick more.

Rento already gave the answer (first pick and first ban is a disadvantage rather)

-------------------------

When to start? Doesn't make sense to wait for the end of CL, Seasonal, Summer breaks, etc.pp. You can Always find a reason why Right now is a bad time. Just get it started asap. Also considering this is 2018 finals ;-)

Good point!
So the Tour Finals will start after the last 2018 event finished and we find out all the details here.
And yes, 2018 Finals, but because of the nature of the Tour events (need longer time to finish an event) it never will be earlier than the next spring, but this is ok I think.

A dummy game for the pick/ban phase is a great idea. For those of us who don't use discord, using that could easily lead to a boot because we don't know the phase has started.

For those of you who haven't seen a best of X game before, I set up this last Summer:

https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer/Tournament?ID=25138

It works well but takes time, especially if players don't understand the format.

EDIT: I also made the (wrong) assumption that players wouldn't go AWOL mid-tournament.

In relation to the player A disadvantage, if neither player likes a template, and player A is aware, they can elect to ban a different template, player B's favourite for example, then player B has to either ban the template neither player likes, or ban player A's favourite. Likewise if player A knows player B can't play a certain unbanned template, they can pick it.

Both players need to research their potential opposition to avoid getting dragged into a trap.

Therefore player A should have an advantage as the last map will always be slightly in their favour.

Edited 5/8/2019 07:13:17

There's a lot of vanilla-templates in the map-pool, could've been more diverse tbh.

Edited 5/8/2019 07:29:08

For those of you who haven't seen a best of X game before, I set up this last Summer:

https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer/Tournament?ID=25138

It works well but takes time, especially if players don't understand the format.

EDIT: I also made the (wrong) assumption that players wouldn't go AWOL mid-tournament.

This is a very good format, that you use a dummy tournament for your bo3 event!

Although in our case that is not ok now, because the seeding (and because the future SHOWs in the forum topics ;)), but still a good idea!
(I opened the Nemo vs. psykkoman games to check the chat, and funny that psykkoman wrote "cya in finals" and then... :D )

--------------

In relation to the player A disadvantage, if neither player likes a template, and player A is aware, they can elect to ban a different template, player B's favourite for example, then player B has to either ban the template neither player likes, or ban player A's favourite.

But Player B still has got the chance he can choose, and after he saw Player A's step.
I guess this is still a Player B advantage, no?

Likewise if player A knows player B can't play a certain unbanned template, they can pick it.

But Player B can do the same, no? What is the advantage for Player A here? (sorry for my weak English :/ )

Both players need to research their potential opposition to avoid getting dragged into a trap.

Yes, I'm looking forward a lot to these ban/pick phases, I think they will be very interesting!

Therefore player A should have an advantage as the last map will always be slightly in their favour.

Do you think that the solution I recommended is not enough balanced? I am not sure I understand well what you wrote, sorry.

--------------

There's a lot of vanilla-templates in the map-pool, could've been more diverse tbh.

Well 13 of the 16 participants are member in the Template Panel (including you Timi :P) who chosen these 12 major templates (only Alex, Octane and Muli/Reza weren't)
But if you want, you can organize a participants voting about the template pool ;) (=Version 2 in my linked post above)
Or if the majority want, I can organize this voting, just give me ideas what type of voting I should use.

As you might've noticed, i did not give my opinion often, as i was short on time during the voting phase :P

The higher seeded player should get to choose in the pick/ban phase whether to go 1st or 2nd instead of having it set in stone. Just a thought...

As you might've noticed, i did not give my opinion often, as i was short on time during the voting phase :P

You shouldn't have been drinking with Farah...
(oh, that was after the voting, so drinking alone, or Berlin or every time ;))
But in all seriousness, I am open to use the Version 2 where the participants voting about the template pool before the event.

The higher seeded player should get to choose in the pick/ban phase whether to go 1st or 2nd instead of having it set in stone. Just a thought...

The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).

My Hunglish must be really awful... :P

Sorry, I read through the thread, but must have missed that. :)

Vanilla SR-Templates (6):
New 1v1 Ladder (Strat MME 0% SR)
Battle Islands V
Phobia SR
Volcano Island
Strategic Greece
Guiroma 16% SR

Slightly Weird, almost Vanilla (2):
Biomes of America
French Brawl

WR-Templates (2):
Old 1v1 Ladder (Strat ME 0% WR)
British Raj

Weird (2):
Blitzkrieg Borg
Macedonia No Split


Just saying we got a ton of Vanilla-Templates. At least from my viewpoint. And yes, that was around the Berlin Open ;)

@huddyj
np ;)

@Timi
Do you want more Macedonia No Split? ;)
But jokes aside, I wrote that I am open for a template pool voting by the participants.

Btw, my categories are:

• Vanilla SR templates
  (New 1v1 ladder settings and the too similar "clones")
  
  • New 1v1 Ladder (Strat MME 0% SR)
    
  • Battle Islands V
    
  • Phobia SR
    
  • Volcano Island
• Not vanilla SR templates
  (this is a category between the vanilla SR and the soft weird templates)
  
  • Strategic Greece
    
  • Guiroma 16% SR
• WR templates
  (WR templates with standard settings (I don't divide this into vanilla and not vanilla like SR, because there isn't too much WR templates (compared to SR))
  
  • Old 1v1 Ladder (Strat ME 0% WR)
    
  • British Raj
• Soft weird templates (can be SR or WR)
  (where the gameplay is different a bit than the standards)
  
  • Biomes of America
    
  • French Brawl
• Very weird templates (can be SR or WR)
  (where the gameplay is very different, these are usually the controversial templates (hated by many but loved too), the templates with more special settings)
  
  • Blitzkrieg Borg
    
  • Macedonia No Split

And about the too many vanilla SR templates.
There are players who like the standard SR templates and hate the luck settings and don't like the weird things neither. There are many players like that. And there are players who don't like the vanilla SR templates (they refer to bean counting, but actually they are lazy to count only :P), but like WR templates and weird settings.
And much easier to play on Vanilla SR templates than on the other ones, I mean the players who don't like the beancounting, still very good on those templates, but vice versa is not always true.

And we have 6 SR and 6 not SR templates now, so the SR lovers can choose an SR template as own template and the other camp can choose a WR or weird template as own one, and the deciding template never will be Vanilla SR template for sure (the anti-Vanilla fans can ban them). Similar for bo5 settings too.

So it seems so many Vanilla SR templates, but because the bans, in the end will be balanced for both SR fans and SR haters imo.

But again, I am open for using Version 2, i.e. the participants will vote to the template pool before the event start.
Btw, I would listen the opinions of the other participants too.

I highly disagree that we should start a discussion About templates now.
It's sad that Timi didn't have the Chance to bring himself in properly but that's how it is. There was a lot of time for that discussion and we had a reasonable and good decision in the end.
Don't make Things more complicated than they could be.

Assuming two equally skilled players have exactly the opposite preference in terms of templates (T1-12):

Player A bans T12
Player B bans T1
Player A picks T2 (game 1)
Player B picks T11 (game 2)
Player A bans T10
Player B bans T3, T4
Player A bans T9, T8
Player B bans T5
Player A picks T6 (game 3)

So templates 2, 6 and 11 are played, player A should always win their pick (T2) and player B should always win their pick (T11), and T6 slightly favours player A (say 60% of the time). In this case (and other similar ones), player A has a 60% chance of winning.

Yeah, AI is right. I was one of those who argued for less vanilla than we ended up with, but others wanted more vanilla than we ended up with. The outcome was a fair reflection of the discussion, and it should be a settled issue for the year. When I made my above comment, I hadn't noticed that they were the Grand Slam/Masters templates.

Do you want more Macedonia No Split? ;)

You could always make it compulsory... ;)

I highly disagree that we should start a discussion About templates now.
It's sad that Timi didn't have the Chance to bring himself in properly but that's how it is. There was a lot of time for that discussion and we had a reasonable and good decision in the end.

We speak about two things here!
One is the major template voting for the Tour. That's finished with a good turnout (13 of 15 voted for Grand Slams and 12 of 15 voted for Masters!), so the result is quite representative imo.
The other is the template pool building for the first two rounds in the Tour Finals.
I just propose the 12 elected major templates for this template pool too (I wrote above why), but we don't have to use it!
If the majority of the participants want to vote on it (Version 2 in my Magazine post linked above), we can do it!
So far Timi wants a new vote for it, AI and kicorse don't want. 3 of 16 so far, I am waiting for the rest opinions too.

So templates 2, 6 and 11 are played, player A should always win their pick (T2) and player B should always win their pick (T11), and T6 slightly favours player A (say 60% of the time). In this case (and other similar ones), player A has a 60% chance of winning.

Very good analysis, thx!
But :)
I think, the winning chance is not correct.
I mean for example the Vanilla SR haters can play on those templates at a very high level, just hate to count :P
Ok, their advantage will be less than on a template he loves, but still not so low.
And a WR hater can play enough high level on the WR templates too (or he can have extreme luck at least ;) ), just hates it.
So I think this is more about the templates love and hate than the winning chance (winning chance affected too, but not so much as it seems at first sight imo)

But this is a brainstorming topic!
So please give us more possibilities, so write here your proposals about the template pool buildings and pick/bans order, etc.
We can only speak about my proposals, but that is not effective enough imo.
I mean a brainstorming is not this, but ton of ideas, an idea tsunami ;)
And not only from the participants but from anyone ;)

So come on guys, it's talk time! ;)

You mentioned Versions 1 and 3 as the template building phases for the event, however I would recommend a modified form of Version 2 for all rounds:

Given you're using 13 maps in the semifinals and finals, I'll go with that instead of 12:

The 4 Grand Slam templates will be in the pool regardless.
Participants choose 9 templates from the 20 Masters 1000 and 500 Series templates to add to the pool, with a limit of:

3 vanilla SR templates
4 non-vanilla SR templates (all the other categories have a Grand Slam template)
3 WR templates
3 soft weird templates
3 hard weird templates

for balance.

Then you can apply the pick/ban phase below to alleviate the advantage of being player A (however small).

EDIT: So I think this is more about the templates love and hate than the winning chance

In a series as long as the ones you're proposing, psychological effects are just as important as gameplay, a player that knows they're going to have to play a template they dislike is going to suffer.

Edited 5/10/2019 11:21:26

Best of 3:
A bans 1
B bans 2
A bans 2
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 1
A bans 1
B bans 2
A bans 1
1 template is left over

Best of 5:
A bans 1
B bans 2
A bans 2
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 1
A bans 1
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 1
1 template is left over

Best of 7:
A bans 1
B bans 2
A bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 2
B picks 1
A bans 1
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 1
1 template is left over

Best of 11:
A bans 1
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 2
B picks 2
A picks 2
B picks 2
A picks 1
1 template is left over

First of all, thank you s1gmoyd for your Hunglish to English translation of my first post! I will replace my text on your mailed one.

And thank you a lot for your proposals!

In a series as long as the ones you're proposing, psychological effects are just as important as gameplay, a player that knows they're going to have to play a template they dislike is going to suffer.

This is a good point!
Well, we have the tools, I mean we can use more ban steps before the picks (as in your proposals) so players can ban more templates they hate, so they can reduce the suffering level.
But it also means that the chance they can play on their most favorite templates is reducing too!
So this is the question, what do the participants want?

• Playing with less misery on common templates but likely missing their favorite ones.
  
• Or playing on their favorite templates but likely suffer from their opponents' ones.

The other important thing is the balance, we should find the most balanced version of the ban/pick steps (the perfect balance is impossible imo, but try to find the most balanced one)

But first of all, we should determine the template pool, because the ban/pick phase is based on that!

The 4 Grand Slam templates will be in the pool regardless.

I like that we both think in very similar way :)
There is an upgraded Version 3 in my mind, where there would be 3 parts of the template pool, one common parts (which decided before the event, and can be the template pool we will use for round1 and 2) and two parts from the two players in the given duel. This give more tactics possibility in the ban/pick phase (not simple ban opponent's elected templates and pick mines) and even in the template building phase. But I am still thinking about the details so I can post this only later.

But this is only for the Semifinals and Finals, with the last four players, because it is more difficult than the Version 1 or Version 2 (and easier guiding 4 players than 16).
I would like this mainly for testing purposes, how this type of template pool building phase can work in practice. I think it can, and gives additional strategic dimensions to the duels. Or not :) Please wait for I find out all the details of my idea and post here, then you can destroy it and we can use Version 1 or 2 template pool building phase for all rounds ;)

Until we can speak about the round1-2 template building method.

Participants choose 9 templates from the 20 Masters 1000 and 500 Series templates to add to the pool, with a limit of

The "limit of" means maximum template numbers from the given template categories in the final template pool?
And how the participants would choose the 9 templates? With a voting? Which type of voting?
Details please ;)
And the details will be difficult, this is why I chose the very simple Version 1 ;)
But I am absolutely open for Version 2 (what you proposed and Timi wants) if we find out the details.

And again, this is a brainstorming topic, I am waiting for all your ideas regarding template pool building and ban/pick phases.
These two things are the key elements of this event, if we can find simple enough, well balanced, well working phases it will be cool.
Please help us to find!

Edited 5/11/2019 05:34:18