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AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/11/2019 12:45:33

talia_fr0st
Level 59
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The "limit of" means maximum template numbers from the given template categories in the final template pool?

Yes, I think? Of the Masters and 500 Series templates, there is a hard limit of X (the number above) maps that can be voted in, ignoring the Grand Slam templates.

And how the participants would choose the 9 templates?

By ordering their top 9 templates then submitting it, then assigning X number of points depending on the placement.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/13/2019 04:27:03


Ekstone 
Level 55
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Still need details ;)

Where would this template category limits be applied?
At the voting level or at the vote resolving level?
I mean
  • voting level: the 16 participants choose and order their 9 templates, but they can choose maximum 3 (4 for non-vanilla) templates from the template categories?
    • if this, what if we will have more than 9 templates in the end? I mean, can be more 9th templates with same aggregated points. Who and how will decide which one will be the 9th template?
    • if this, how can you ensure those template categories limits in the final pool? I mean, all (or the decisive majority) players can choose only vanilla templates as their TOP3 for example, in that case will be (much) more vanilla templates in the final 9 templates than 3. Or this will not be a problem, because the (decisive) majority decided this?
  • vote resolving level: they can choose (and order) any template numbers from the template categories, but after we choose the top (with most points) templates from the different template categories in order that we can ensure the limits.
    • if this, what if we will have more templates with same aggregated points? (same issue than above)
    • your limit numbers 3+4+3+3+3-4=12 but we need only 9 templates. So we have a problem here too.
  • a mixed mode: we use both method above, but still similar questions (same aggregated points, your limits are not paired with the 9 templates we need in the end)
And many other questions, such as the voting will be by WZ mails? What will be the deadlines? etc.
But these ones are easier than the listed ones above.

So this is why I skipped Version 2 and chose the very simple Version 1.
But still open for the Version 2, we just have to find the answers ;)
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/13/2019 04:34:34


Ekstone 
Level 55
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your limit numbers 3+4+3+3+3-4=12 but we need only 9 templates. So we have a problem here too.

In the meantime, I found a solution for this.
We start with the template with most point and if this is a vanilla template, the counter of vanilla will be 1, then we check the second most point template, and if this is a vanilla template too, then the vanilla counter will be 2, if the 3rd most point template is a vanilla too, then the vanilla counter will reach the maximum, and if the 4th most point template a vanilla too, we will simple skip it, I see.
But still is a problem the templates with same aggregated points ;)

But what if everybody only choose vanilla templates? :)
So we need the mixed mode (where the limits for the votes too)

Edited 5/13/2019 04:38:04
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/13/2019 04:40:44


Ekstone 
Level 55
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Ah and one more question, who will decide about the template categories?
I can make the initial categories, but after that the template panel should validate it.
So this is a prereq.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/13/2019 04:46:48


Ekstone 
Level 55
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But still is a problem the templates with same aggregated points ;)

In this case we can check the first seeded player's vote if he votes on these templates, and if yes, choose the highest ordered one from his votes. If the first seeded player didn't vote any of these templates, the we check the second seeded player's votes and so on.

My brain can storm alone ;)
(would be better if more brains, but... :P )

Edited 5/13/2019 04:48:01
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/15/2019 16:05:25

talia_fr0st
Level 59
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The sum of the limits was deliberately over the maximum number of templates so the players can have more weird or vanilla maps if they want it that way.

A player can choose as many templates from a category as they like.

Like you worked out, if there are more than the limit of a type of template in the top 9 templates, then you keep looking through the 20 templates on order to find valid templates.

EDIT: Template panel seems like a fair go to.

Edited 5/15/2019 16:06:01
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/16/2019 04:51:30


Ekstone 
Level 55
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The sum of the limits was deliberately over the maximum number of templates so the players can have more weird or vanilla maps if they want it that way.

Ah, I see, and this is a good idea! (still a limit, but players have the ability to shape the proportions)

A player can choose as many templates from a category as they like.

But this can be a problem.
I mean, what if all the participants will choose only SR templates, and none of WR or any weird templates?
In this case we will have 4 (Grand Slams) + 3 (max. vanilla SR number) + 4 (max. non-vanilla SR number) = 11 templates and 2 will miss!
(I know this is very extreme but still can happen so we need a rule for it)

In the other hand, if the limits will be obligatory for the player's votes too, we will have more representative points for every template categories. (for example if everybody choose only SR templates, but one player choose WR and weird templates, then the WR and weird template rankings will be based on only one player vote)

So I propose, that we use the template category limits already in the voting phase not only in the vote resolving phase.

And, I propose that we don't use the four Grand Slam templates without voting neither (this is an other situation than the Tour template voting was), and add the fixed 250 Series templates (11) to the voting pool too (for example Georgia Army Cap is a very popular template but only 250 Series because the Tour proportions!).

So the participants would choose 20 templates from the Grand Slams (4), Masters (8), 500 Series (12) and fixed 250 Series (11), so total of 35 templates, with a limit of:
  • 4 Vanilla SR templates
  • 4 Non-vanilla SR templates
  • 4 WR templates
  • 4 Soft weird templates
  • 4 Hard weird templates
I proposed 20, because in this way we will have 4 votes for every categories from every players.
Then we will choose the best 13 templates with most aggregated points, but if we will have more than 4 templates from a category in the TOP13, then skip the 5th in that category and check the 14th most point templates, and so on (the idea what I wrote earlier)

What do you think?

And we should find a good voting resolve system.
Which points for the 20 chosen and ranked templates by the players?
Simple: 20 points for the first ranked templates, 19 for the second, and so on?
Or more weighted way? (higher ranked templates would gain extra points than the lower, similar than in Formula One (https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_World_Championship_scoring_system))
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/17/2019 09:32:54


Rento 
Level 61
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I appreciate the amount of work you put into this, but it really gets too complicated. I suggest you just use the 12 Grand Slam + Masters templates and the pick/ban system by players involved. If 12 templates is not enough, add the 500 series so you have 24.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/26/2019 03:33:09


Ekstone 
Level 55
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Honestly, I am curious about how this voting would work in practice and its output too.
And I love to thinking on and create new systems :)

But I understand, maybe this version is too difficult
(btw, it seems difficult, but only the elaboration is complicated, for the participants won't be as complicated as it seems now)
So I will create a quick participant voting about what version should we use.

Anyway, we have the name of the last participant, congrats to Muli!
(I mean only last qualified, because Muli is in 12th place now and if he beat Suschel in the tournament Finals, he will be 9th!)

So we have the final participant list for the Tour Finals:
  • kicorse
  • Rento
  • MoD
  • Styxie
  • malakkan
  • FSG
  • Timi
  • JV
  • Quicksilver
  • Buns
  • rakleader
  • Muli
  • alexclusive
  • AI
  • Octane
  • Beren
Although we are still waiting for the last 2019 game (the tourney Finals between Muli and Suschel) for the final seeding.

So what's next:
I will write here the template pool building versions in detail.
Then I will create a quick mail voting thread for the 16 participants to decide what version will be used.

Edited 5/26/2019 03:36:15
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/26/2019 08:41:03


Ekstone 
Level 55
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So we have two choices regarding to the template pool building:

  • VERSION 1: There won't be any template pool building phase, we simple use the 12 elected major Tour templates as a pool:
  • VERSION 2: There will be a template pool building phase before the event, where the 16 participants will elect (with a voting) the templates to the pool in the following way:
    • 35 templates were classified into 4 categories, which you can find in my next post.
    • The 16 participants will choose and vote on their TOP20 templates from those 35 in the following way:
      • It will start as a secret ballot, so the participants will have to send their votes to s1gmoyd and me privately by WZ mails.
        But in the end all the 16 TOP20 votes will be published in a google docs, so the votes will be public.
      • The participants will have to choose 20 templates from the 35, but will have to choose a minimum of three from all four categories (no maximum limit)
      • The participants will have to rank their votes, because their
        • 20th votes will score 1 point,
        • 19th will 2 points,
        • 18th will 3 points,
        • 17th will 4 points,
        • 16th will 5 points,
        • 15th will 6 points,
        • 14th will 7 points,
        • 13th will 8 points,
        • 12th will 9 points,
        • 11th will 10 points,
        • 10th will 12 points,
        • 9th will 14 points,
        • 8th will 16 points,
        • 7th will 18 points,
        • 6th will 20 points,
        • 5th will 23 points,
        • 4th will 26 points,
        • 3th will 29 points,
        • 2nd will 33 points
        • and the first will be 40 points.
    • After every votes received, we summarize the votes and publish them in a google docs, and based on those votes and the summarized points we find the 12 templates for the template pool in the following way:
      • There will be minimum one template from all the 4 categories in the pool, so first we find the templates with most summarized points from all 4 categories (if more templates will be with the same summarized points then the higher seeded player's vote will decide). After it 4 of the 12 templates will be chosen.
      • There will be a maximum 5 templates per categories limit, so the next step that we will find the next template with most summarized points (if more templates will be with the same summarized points then the higher seeded player's vote will decide) and check the followings:
        • The templates already chosen in the first step?
          • If no, check the next thing below
          • If yes, skip it and proceed with the next most summarized points template.
        • The template is already the 6th in a category (so the maximum limit was reached already)?
          • If no, we found the next template in the pool, and check the next thing below.
          • If yes, skip it and proceed with the next most summarized points template.
        • We have already 12 templates?
          • If no, proceed with the next most summarized points template.
          • If yes, the template pool building phase is over
The question is whether better to use even or odd number templates in the template pool will be discussed in the next section (about the ban/pick steps).
If the odd number will be chosen then we will find 13 templates not 12, and will be China as the 13th template in Version 1.

Ok, that's all :)
I am waiting for your opinions.
If no any until Tuesday early morning CET, I will send these two versions to the 16 participants for voting.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/26/2019 08:41:30


Ekstone 
Level 55
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AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/29/2019 07:57:57


Ekstone 
Level 55
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After the template pool question we should decide on the exact ban/pick phase too.
Regarding the ban/pick phase there are two questions:

  • QUESTION 1: Even or odd number of templates should we use in the template pool?
    • I proposed even number because of the balance for ban/pick steps.
      • In the first round (RO16) - in case of 12 templates in the pool
        • The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).
        • Player A bans 1
        • Player B bans 1
        • Player A picks 1 (game 1)
        • Player B picks 1 (game 2)
        • Player A bans 1
        • Player B bans 2
        • Player A bans 2
        • Player B bans 1
        • Player A picks 1 (game 3)
      Rento summed up very well why this version is balanced, so I just copy his post
      Being first to pick/ban is a disadvantage. If you pick the template your opponent wanted to pick, you're doing him a favor and he can pick/ban his 2nd choice. So it's better to move second.
      But: choosing the final templates clearly is an advantage for the first player. So all in all, it balances very nicely. Letting the seeded player choose if he wants to go first or second is a great idea.
      So Player A has got one more pick, this is true, but Player B can have more, if Player A choose 1-2 templates what Player B wanted too, so actually Player B will have additional ban/pick steps in this way. And don't forget, Player A will choose only between the last two remained templates, and Player B already vetoed out the templates what he wanted, and the last two remained should be the most neutrals for both players, so not a very big advantage.
    • The odd number of templates version, proposed by s1gmoyd (as is in the CS:GO):
      • In the first round (RO16) - in case of 13 templates in the pool
        • The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).
        • Player A bans 1
        • Player B bans 1
        • Player A picks 1 (game 1)
        • Player B picks 1 (game 2)
        • Player A bans 1
        • Player B bans 2
        • Player A bans 2
        • Player B bans 2
        • Player A picks 1 (game 3)
      I just now realized, that s1gmoyd changed his eariler steps, and now actually Player A can pick the last map from the two remained ones in his version too, as in my proposal. I changed s1gmoyd's step orders because for easier comparability.
      So the only difference is the one more template in the pool, and thus Player B has got equal ban/pick steps than Player A.
    So in both versions Player A has a disadvantage (first to ban/pick) and an advantage (choose the final template from the last two remained). But with odd number of templates, Player B will have same ban/pick steps as Player A, while even number of templates, Player A will have one more step than Player B.
    So the question is, how big a disadvantage to be first? For balance it enough if the first player (Player A) can choose from the last two remained templates? Or for the balance need additionally that the first player (Player A) has one more step than the second player (Player B)?
    In the other hand, for the 13th template likely need an additional voting (or I simple choose China as I wrote in the other topic). So the other question is, how big the difference between the odd and even number version at all? Worth it to find that 13th template?

  • QUESTION 2: Less suffering or preferring the favorite templates?
    • Less suffering (suffering means playing on hated (not very liked) templates)
      In this case, players will have more ban steps before the pick steps, so they can veto out the hated (not very liked) templates, and only (likely) neutrals template will be picked (however, this also means that all favorite templates likely will be vetoed!)
      Here is the most extreme example, where first only ban steps, and playing on the remained 3 templates (bo3 format)
      • In the first round (RO16) - in case of 12 templates in the pool
        • The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).
        • Player A bans 1
        • Player B bans 2
        • Player A bans 3
        • Player B bans 2
        • Player A bans 1
        • Player B picks 1 (game 1)
        • Player A picks 1 (game 2)
        • 1 template is left over (game 3)
      • In the first round (RO16) - in case of 13 templates in the pool
        • The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).
        • Player A bans 1
        • Player B bans 3
        • Player A bans 3
        • Player B bans 2
        • Player A bans 1
        • Player B picks 1 (game 1)
        • Player A picks 1 (game 2)
        • 1 template is left over (game 3)
      But of course, can be less ban steps before the first two pick steps (it depends on the target "suffering level")
    • Preferring the favorite templates.
      In this case, players will possible to choose their favorite templates earlier than those would be vetoed.
      Here is the most extreme example, where players can choose immediately their most favorite templates, and only the last deciding template will be chosen by ban steps.
      • In the first round (RO16) - in case of 12 templates in the pool
        • The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).
        • Player A picks 1 (game 1)
        • Player B picks 1 (game 2)
        • Player A bans 1
        • Player B bans 2
        • Player A bans 3
        • Player B bans 2
        • Player A bans 1 (= picks the game 3)
        • 1 template is left over (game 3)
      • In the first round (RO16) - in case of 13 templates in the pool
        • The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).
        • Player A picks 1 (game 1)
        • Player B picks 1 (game 2)
        • Player A bans 1
        • Player B bans 3
        • Player A bans 3
        • Player B bans 2
        • Player A bans 1 (= picks the game 3)
        • 1 template is left over (game 3)
    So this question is about where the first two pick steps should be positioned?
    Avoid suffering or preferring favorite templates?
    What I proposed originally is after two ban steps. Because in this case, the players can veto out their most hated template, but only one, so still possible to choose a favorite (ok, not the most favorite but still liked enough) template. And with only two ban steps, we save time as well, I mean after the two ban steps, players can choose their 1-1 pick, after that I can create the first two games, and the fight can start (and parallel the players can carry on the additional ban steps, until the deciding template was chosen).
    While if we have many ban steps first, then we have to wait while all ban steps over, so not optimal.
Ok, these are the two questions. I am waiting for your opinions, proposals before I create a voting for find the answers.

Thank you very much for your time and help in advance.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/29/2019 10:18:41


Rento 
Level 61
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You only show how it would work in the first round. What about the final, choosing 11 templates out of 12/13?
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/30/2019 03:20:01


Ekstone 
Level 55
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Because this will be only in the first round and the QF (best of 5)
In SF and F will be a very simple template building phase per match (this base template pool will be expanded with templates of the two players) so those template pool will be bigger a bit.

And these are only examples to help understand the questions.
The real steps will be determined based on your answers.
And these questions apply to all rounds (odd or even template numbers? / less suffering or preferring the favorite templates?)

I will send you (to all 16 participant) a simplified version of this for voting on the two questions, here now just open to discuss if you think something is not ok or you have additional idea, etc.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/30/2019 11:38:41

talia_fr0st
Level 59
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Player A picking the last map is equivalent to player A banning away a map and the remaining map being left over, there is no effective difference.

In response to the suffering, usually a balance is made between the two extremes.

Edited 5/30/2019 11:40:16
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 6/3/2019 04:52:05


Ekstone 
Level 55
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Yes, equivalent, this is why I wrote two versions (and wrote = in the second)

And yes, a balance need, but where is it? :)
I am prefere the first ban-ban, then pick-pick then ban-ban then pick-pick version and when only one template need then only bans until the last one. This gives you vetos but chance to pick your favorite templates too.
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