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Religious Values Question: 1/15/2019 13:11:28


Njord
Level 63
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your objections about faith makes perfect sense if pascal was a protestant. He was a catholic though, and in catholicism salvation is given formally by being baptized, and you only lose it if you make a mortal sin. So what you believe does not matter much. In general catholicism is much more focused on practice then protestantism were you only get salvation though faith alone, in which case you would be right..... there is some room for faith though, but pascal did write about this. Actually he did mention exactly what you mention when he writes about the wager, and the book is about how to make people belif since reason alone is not enough...


also

in christianity the bible is not given by god, it's written by man

Edited 1/15/2019 13:45:20
Religious Values Question: 1/16/2019 16:27:31


The Joey
Level 59
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I am spiritual, not religious. But I think religion is just like any other belief system, and I believe parents should have the right to raise their children to believe what ever they want, as long as it doesn't actively harm other people.

People can argue about religion being good or bad. But at least from my perspective I see no innate reason why religion is harmful, and plenty of reason's why religion can be helpful to both an individual and especially a society. So just because I reject religion, doesn't mean I think others should should too. Its fine for parents to accept and value religion then try and pass that value to their children. I see no innate difference between trying to teach a child religion, and trying to teach a child any other sort of system of values or beliefs.
Religious Values Question: 1/17/2019 20:12:38


│ [20] │MASTER│ Rikku │ I love my wife │ • apex │
Level 61
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What church did you go to and what age did you stop?
Religious Values Question: 1/19/2019 00:00:13


Nergal
Level 61
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God doesn´t matter.

If He exists, than that means He created the whole universe and us (and perhaps aliens) to thrive in it.
Meaning we should be busy being ourselves and becoming the best we can be.
Not take away so much time and indoctrinate whole civilizations with worships and constantly holding back technical and ethical advancements.

If He doesn´t exist, well, we should still try to be the best we can be.

Ergo, God shouldn´t matter and thus doesn´t matter.

So stop worrying about God and worry about your fellow man and world pollution of plastic instead.
Because if He is real, He will be very very mad your totally ruined His beautiful garden; naughty kids indeed.
Religious Values Question: 1/19/2019 12:47:35

Misser
Level 39
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"People can argue about religion being good or bad. But at least from my perspective I see no innate reason why religion is harmful, and plenty of reason's why religion can be helpful to both an individual and especially a society."

Hello, sir. What planet were you born on, and after your arrival to earth, when did you stop to follow world news?
Religious Values Question: 1/30/2019 13:38:56

Nauzhror 
Level 58
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"in christianity the bible is not given by god, it's written by man"

Eh, it's not literally taught that God held pen to paper, but it pretty much is insinuated that the books are the channeled word of god and those that authored the books did so at the behest of God as oppose to it being contents of their own creation.


"People can argue about religion being good or bad. But at least from my perspective I see no innate reason why religion is harmful, and plenty of reason's why religion can be helpful to both an individual and especially a society."

Wut?

Not to say it is "wholly" harmful, it isn't, but to say you see no harm is insane.

Believing a lie with all of your being stops you from seeking the truth. That's harmful on a fundamental level. But most of the harm is that people don't just follow their religions. Their religions teach them that they need to convert others to their religion as a means of saving them. This type of nonsense is what caused events such as the crusades and the deaths of millions.

An estimated 30+ million people have died in the name of Christianity alone.

Edited 1/30/2019 13:47:25
Religious Values Question: 1/30/2019 21:56:17


The Joey
Level 59
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My opinion that religion isn't innately harmful is really grounded on the meaning of the word 'innately'. Defined to mean, 'an inborn characteristic; naturally.' I am not contending that people have not done horrible, horrible things in the name of one religion or another. That claim would be insane. But I would contend that the idea that religion is the underlying cause of these atrocities is not true. I will instead make the argument that human nature and tribalism is the real underlying cause of these atrocities, and religion is used as a justification for these actions.

Firstly lets define religion, because this word holds many meanings and I only believe my statement holds true for certain definitions. "Religion: the service and worship of God or the supernatural." There is nothing innately wrong with the worship of the supernatural or god. What is innately wrong is when people use those beliefs to justify negative, often tribalistic actions.

Take, Christianity and the Bible. The Bible is a collection of parables and stories that loosely directs and define Christianity. It is full of many contradictions. Indeed, the Bible even has two contradicting creation stories in Genesis alone (https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/passages/related-articles/two-creations-in-genesis). So if you look hard enough you could find a justification for nearly any action, and a contradiction that condemns that same action. So if your goal is to find a justification to commit atrocities against your neighbor, you will find that. But it also tells people to love your neighbor and forgive others. In the end it is the society and individuals that decide what to believe, and how to interpret the Bible. This leads us to the point that it is not the religion that causes people to commit atrocities, but instead it is the people and societies who choose how to interrupt a religion that cause these atrocities. Thus I would contend that people would commit atrocities with or without religion. Surely these atrocities would have taken a slightly different form, but if a society is violent, tribalistic, and warmongering; wars and genocides would still occur.

One could claim that, 'Christianity is innately bad because it holds these contradictions that allow us to use them as a justification to commit atrocities.' But again, this is not an innate issue with the religion, but instead a reflection of the societies that follow these religions. Take the Bible, the Bible is really not 'the Bible.' There is no one version of the Bible instead there are many, many versions of a bible that have came about through a slow process of societies and people editing, translating (often poorly), and curating stories within different versions of a bible to reflect their beliefs. For example, one commonly found version of a bible found around the United States is the Jeffersonian Bible. Thomas Jefferson (our third president and one of our most influential founding fathers) literally edited a bible removing certain passages and changing the wordings of passages he didn't believe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible). This leads to the point that it is not religion that creates beliefs that allow people and society to commit atrocities, but instead it the tendencies and beliefs of a society or person that are reflected in the way a religion is expressed that cause people to commit atrocities.

To summarize, religion does not cause a person or society to be bad, it is the people or societies that cause a religion to be bad.

Finally, I find the idea that religion is bad because it stops people from searching for the 'truth' (another loosely defined term that we could have an endless debate on, what is 'truth' and who decides what those 'truths' are?) to be blatantly false. For the vast majority of recent history, it was religion and theologians that made up almost the entirety of the educated class that drove the western world's science and our understanding of the world forward. For example, the Muslim middle eastern scholars, Gregor Mendel, Charles Darwin, the list of religious scholars goes on and on. Even today, you will find many religious academics. Yes, many scientists are not religious, but that is not because religion inhibits science, but instead it is just because science is another belief system that can replace religion (there is even a strong argument that is dependent on the definition of the word religion, that argues science is really just another religion.)

@Riku I was raised as a member of the United Methodist Church, where I went to church nearly every Sunday until I was around 17 or 18, when I stopped entirely. But the process of me no longer believing in Christianity was a slow shift that took many years.

Edited 1/30/2019 23:13:55
Religious Values Question: 1/31/2019 00:45:53


Nergal
Level 61
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"Is the Catholic Church a Force for Good in the World?"
Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens battle it out with Archbishop John Onaiyekan and Ann

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZRcYaAYWg4

watch from 47:30 for church obliteration, only takes about 20minutes
(full debate is 1h, questions another hour)

There is also a public vote from the live audience, +-2000 people, before and after the debate+questions
Let me say that if you want to cling to the concept of the church, don´t watch it :)
Religious Values Question: 1/31/2019 18:56:11


The Joey
Level 59
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Very interesting video! I certainly am not trying to claim any particular religious institution is good or bad. I completely believe some religious institutions can be inherently good or bad depending upon how they are ran and the values they instill. My claim has more to do with the concept of religion in general. Not any particular institution.
Religious Values Question: 2/1/2019 07:53:59


OgreZed
Level 59
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Maybe Mrs. Betty Bowers, America's Best Christian, can help Trump out with Bible study in the schools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCk4LSHdPKw

Whose land?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

Do you know Hank?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaFZQBb2srM

Stephen Fry on God:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo
Religious Values Question: 2/1/2019 23:59:10


Nergal
Level 61
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OgreZed, now don´t you be too blunt.
You will scare them "believers" away from The Truth!

They have to come to terms with it from within.
Else they shut down from any logical thinking and start some mantras to reinforce their indoctrination.
Religious Values Question: 2/11/2019 12:55:11


Rento 
Level 61
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The overly religious, dogmatic people could sometimes use more logical thinking, yes.

But the anti-religious people could use some love for their brethren just as much. From my observations it's almost always the anti-religion side that adds passive aggression to an otherwise friendly discussion. Unnecessary.
Religious Values Question: 2/11/2019 14:54:04


ZeedMillenniummon
Level 59
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^ This is indeed true
Religious Values Question: 2/12/2019 06:54:43


OgreZed
Level 59
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Atheists don't have brethren, since that requires a shared religion. And it's not a coincidence that such a term excludes women.

Do atheists love others less than theists? The only difference between them is that most theists just reject one less god than the atheists, out of the thousands that are claimed to exist. Theists can despise those with beliefs in gods other than theirs, as well as those that have different beliefs about the same god.

The common thread for all of them is that the other groups are delusional in their beliefs. Look at the wide difference just in Christianity -- Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Methodists, ... -- even down to different sets of sacred texts. All called the inspired word of God.

There's a joke that a child with an imaginary friend is normal, an adult with an imaginary friend is peculiar, but a group of adults with an imaginary friend is a religion.
Religious Values Question: 2/12/2019 07:44:47

ACMFatih1899
Level 57
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You are a question
Religious Values Question: 2/12/2019 12:12:47


Rento 
Level 61
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OgreZed, I thought brethren was just a term for both brothers and sisters, not excluding anyone. That's how I meant to use this word at least. If I'm wrong, I blame it on the English language changing everything way too often and way too quickly.
Religious Values Question: 2/12/2019 16:57:18


The Joey
Level 59
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"Brethern," is an interesting word with many definitions!

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brethren

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/brethren

You both are right!

Edited 2/12/2019 16:57:56
Religious Values Question: 2/13/2019 07:00:11


OgreZed
Level 59
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Rento is right that language evolves over time.

Way back, it was brethren and sistren. We have many such pairs of words. Many have been replaced with gender-neutral forms. Others have had one or the other come to refer to both genders.

My point was that, historically, brethren reflected the gender dominance of the Christian religion.

How many of you have even heard of sistren before? My Chrome spellchecker doesn't even recognize it.
Religious Values Question: 2/13/2019 12:18:49


{Canidae} Kretoma 
Level 59
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Plot twist. I am an Atheist who uphelds Christian traditions (most of them). Why should this be exclusive?
Religious Values Question: 2/13/2019 12:59:23


Onoma94
Level 61
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sistren


Never such a word existed, because plural of "sister" was always something different. Plural of "brother" being "brethren" is influence of other words that had umlaut and ending "-en" in plural.

And the use of "brethren" as in "brothers in faith" is something that exists in other languages too (I definitely haven't heard of something like "sisters in faith" in my native language while opposite is true for "brothers in faith"). Religion related words change slower than other ones. Most concepts like that used to be simply expressed by masculine gender words, despite having a more universal meaning. It's prolly related to patriarchal character of european civilization (see also: "queen" originally meaning 'a woman', only later 'king's wife').

Edited 2/13/2019 12:59:28
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