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Let's talk about UserVoice: 12/7/2017 06:16:30


ViralGoat 
Level 60
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Also, can we get some non-video step by step tutorials on how to do mods? I know dabo had a video but his accent is so thick that I couldn't understand him. Here's the thread with his tutorial

https://www.warzone.com/Forum/257453-programming-tutorial-mod-explenation

I might try to transcribe dabo1's tutorial and put it in a text on the wiki
Let's talk about UserVoice: 12/7/2017 08:34:29


DanWL 
Level 63
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^
Didn't look at the video, put I've got a list to guide you here:

    1) Play strategy games - should help you to break down problems.
    2) Learn to program. Chose a good teaching language like Smalltalk since it doesn't have many WATs and WTFs, it only focuses on OOP (object-oriented programimg) principles rather than language-specific things.
    3) Learn Lua - mods have to be made in this language.
    4) Practice making things in Lua, get familiar with it.
    5) Learn the mod framework.
    6) Look at existing examples of mods. Observe how the mod framework is used and how the mod idea was made. Question why the mod was made how it was.
    7) Pick an idea on Uservoice and turn it into a mod.
    8) Get people to review the code.
    9) Upload the mod to GitHub.
    10) Repeat steps 6 to 9. This'll be good practice for learning the mod framework and Lua. Don't stop learning.

You shouldn't rush any of the above steps for the best results.
Edit: another good guide - https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-of-the-best-ways-to-learn-programming.

Edited 12/7/2017 12:13:58
Let's talk about UserVoice: 12/7/2017 14:46:35


ViralGoat 
Level 60
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Sorry, 1 through 4 are not needed. I don't need to learn Lua or programming in general. I already know Java. I get the rest of the points 5 through 10.

I hate studying APIs. I don't need to know all the warlight API either. It's like learning all about the mechanics of a car, but I won't know how to drive it.

Edited 12/7/2017 16:21:10
Let's talk about UserVoice: 12/7/2017 19:54:07

Fizzer 
Level 64

Warzone Creator
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Huge thanks to DanWL for helping clean out a ton of Uservoice entries!
Let's talk about UserVoice: 12/7/2017 21:03:46


Krzysztof 
Level 67
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i can see few problem with Uservoice:
- visibility - is there any way to find it on the website? i think not or it's well hidden

- voting system - that's bigger issue - how should i choose between something big like 'add diplomacy system' and simple changes like 'add sorting by time to boot' - there are many uncomparable things that's it's pretty hard to prioritize if you don't know about chance it's really going to be implemented, estimated timeline, etc. Other problematic thing is "not on immediate roadmap" - highest voted feature is created 7 years ago, it's not on immediate roadmap. Same was with diplomcy system. Soo, what should i do if i voted for it? Keep my vote there - but what for? It's there so long and nothing happens. Votes wasted. So, change them? Then it goes down, if it wasn't on immediate roadmap for 7 years with such high score, what are the chances that it will appear on it when people remove their votes?

- the biggest issue - i would call it 'trust problem'. It's linked with the 'not on immediate roadmap'. What are succesfull uservoices propositions? I recall two - 3v3 ladder and sorting past games by end time. It's fine with ladder, there was/is group of very active players who wanted it, they voted for it, ultimately they got what they wanted. That's how it's supposed to work. The second case is not so obvious, sorting ended game by start time is really bad(if you can see one of you game disappeared it's hard to determine which one). Yet it required guy that started the whole campaign - mailed people, created forum topics, agitated in clans to get decent number of votes and fix it. Pretty much efforts for something that might be considered bug and i'm pretty sure it would be buried amongst other small things in uservoice without so much advertize. Also i'm not sure how many votes goth both of those features and as far i remember it surely was far from top of the list - no more than 200 for sorting, maybe a bit more for the 3v3 ladder.
What the other recent new features in warlight comes from? Bomb card, commanders, commerce, coins etc. Most likely there were ideas that suggested something like special units, new cards, gold or something. But also most likely it was buried deep and differs from what we've got.
So the point is - why should we bother with using UserVoice if it doesn't give effects? Highly voted ideas are not implemented, and we get things that weren't supported. I may be wrong, maybe there are many features taken from UserVoice i just overlooked. In such case just publish them - list all implemented ideas from uservoice with number of votes and show people it's worth to spend time for it. Cause currently i feel that there's no point to spend time for uservoice and i'm pretty sure i'm not alone with such feeling.
Let's talk about UserVoice: 12/7/2017 21:23:38

Fizzer 
Level 64

Warzone Creator
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visibility - is there any way to find it on the website?

Help -> How can I submit feedback or suggest new features?

While we could make it more visible, I don't think it's too necessary. Would there be a benefit to getting every player to visit that site? We just need a representative sample of the audience to get accurate voting. More players just means the votes are more accurate, it doesn't help idea get implemented faster.

how should i choose between something big like 'add diplomacy system' and simple changes like 'add sorting by time to boot' - there are many uncomparable things that's it's pretty hard to prioritize

Indeed it is! This is part of my job, to prioritize unrelated things like those against each other and figure out what is deserving of time. I have even more things to prioritize than what you see here, like database optimizations, bug fixes, support requests, requests to join livestreams, marketing, legal, ad optimizations, managing finances, taxes, etc.

Other problematic thing is "not on immediate roadmap" - highest voted feature is created 7 years ago, it's not on immediate roadmap.

The fact is there are thousands of people with feature requests, but only one person implementing them. And it can take weeks/months to do a single item. So yes, progress through the items will always be slow. If we had a team of 20 devs implementing features, Uservoice participation would be a better experience since features could be cranked through at a more reasonable pace. But we have what we have, what is your proposed solution?

What are succesfull uservoices propositions?

Click the "Status -> Completed" filter.
Let's talk about UserVoice: 12/7/2017 21:45:22

Hasdrubal
Level 61
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For the start, I recommend that you post direct link in the game page. I know where the usevoice is placed, but, as it won't show as a link in the game itself, I don't read it often.

More reader or posters would probably do a thing toward better game or better game experience.
Let's talk about UserVoice: 12/7/2017 23:01:13


DanWL 
Level 63
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Huge thanks to DanWL for helping clean out a ton of Uservoice entries!

Thanks! I did 77 of them yesterday. Np. Was a bit bored.
Let's talk about UserVoice: 12/7/2017 23:35:55


MightySpeck (a Koala) 
Level 60
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wow the first post isn't highlighted :O
Let's talk about UserVoice: 12/14/2017 14:25:33


Krzysztof 
Level 67
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Help -> How can I submit feedback or suggest new features?

In fact it's Help -> How can i submit or suggest new features -> Wiki -> Uservoice. I think it's right to call it 'well hidden' :P


While we could make it more visible, I don't think it's too necessary. Would there be a benefit to getting every player to visit that site? We just need a representative sample of the audience to get accurate voting. More players just means the votes are more accurate, it doesn't help idea get implemented faster.


Of course there would be benefits. Cause now you are not getting representative samples. Check two opposite ideas: Bring back old 1v1 ladder vs Don't bring back it. 339 vs 83. Completely different from what you get in poll posted on forums. Isn't it lack of accuracy?
There are 400 votes for Windows Phone client. Isn't it dead already?:P Current UV is highly dependent on efforts that are put into advertizing given idea. That's not going to give true opinion.



Click the "Status -> Completed" filter.

My bad, i overlooked that (however, i'm pretty sure i've used it already).
So i've checked top 2 pages of completed ideas(i could go beyond page 2 and find more ideas that was completed in recent years, but if something with 40 votes is done, it's not done because of 'vox populi), picked those completed in 2014 and later (without "can be implemented by mods"). What we get there:

- 2017:
HTML5 Client - completed because of Unity WebGL client. 55 votes. I suppose it's not the 55 votes put into this convinced you to do it, just the konwledge that Flash is dying and it has to be addressed somehow

- 2016:
Cleverer AI(94 votes), Increase Forum Posting to 30 level (72) - fine with it - looks like players wanted better AI improving forums experiences and they got what they wanted (even if the forum was resolved different way)

-2015:
3v3 ladder (149 votes + 65 for tweaking template), sorting Past Games by end date(173), Partial history(109), Secondary Colors(115), Standing in Round Robin while in progress (65)
So, a bit more here. I've already gave my thoughts about sorting past games. On the other side ladder could be example, that UV is really working - people wanted it, people voted for it and they got it, even if you weren't fan of this idea(i remember that you didn't expect this ladder to get enough players). Other things are also nice and useful features that we can belive were inspired by uservoice (maybe beside secondary colors, i suspect it was mostly for preventing checking coin game opponents:P)

-2014:
Flag in profiles(304 votes)
Well, that could be another flagship example of UV usage. Lot of votes and got implemented.

How i see it:
In the recent years there is only one highly voted idea that got implemented (flags), there are some "decently voted" where it's hard to determine if the community's desire toward them is really bigger that toward other things. And there's only one feature that impacted actual gameplay(AI), but it's not a big impact for most of the players. Those are of course nice features, but definitly minor ones.
Especially that in the meanwhile we got a bunch of feature that weren't mentioned in uservoice.

But to be clear - i'm not going to complain, that you don't implement highest voted ideas from UV. Or that instead, you implemented other things (even if they weren't welcomed warmly). Or there is not enough completed ideas. You are creator of this game, it's obvious that you have your vision how it should look like, you know better what can be done and what can't. All i'm trying to do is to show that there is justified feeling that "uservoice doesn't matter". You can't deny it .There may be good reasons for it as there were other things to do - like flash that won't wait for Warlight. But the fact is, that we see is that there is place where people put ideas, votes for ideas and comment other ideas. And in the end they got very little for it. That's not encouraging to going there. As you said, you are alone to work on it, 20 another devs are rather not expected soon. So, neither we should exepcted improvent . And if it can't be improved i would suggest removing it.
My solution would be quite simple - create another subforum for ideas. Without any sofisticated tools, simple voting Yes/No should be enough. It will give you view if the proposed change is accepted by community, other people can point out any shortcomings or potential backlashes of implementing it or improve this idea (and more people see it, the bigger chance someone will notice something useful - that's something you are not getting from UV currently). There still will be complains("my idea has 95% upvotes, why it's not in the game yet") and you won't be able to prioritize according to number of votes. But looks like it's how it is done currently in most cases and also looks like it works quite fine. So, not really big loss.
Let's talk about UserVoice: 12/14/2017 15:05:27


Krzysztof 
Level 67
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As i fell i still didn't write enough, few more words.

I'm sceptical about this:

First, if your idea cannot be implemented using the mod framework, then it's OK to submit to it UserVoice. You can either word it as a normal feature, or word it as an idea to expand the mod framework to support it.

If your idea can be implemented using the mod framework, next determine if a mod already exists to accomplish it. If a mod already exists, then it's OK to submit it to UserVoice as an idea to convert a mod into a built-in feature. Note that these type of ideas will only be considered if the mod is already pretty popular.


I've seen in uservoice ideas completed/declined because they are avaiable through mods. But the more important thing is if they can be done well. So examples:
- limited deployment - it's fine idea. But playing with mod can be quite annoying. There is no way mod will tell you that you are deploying too many. If you do so troops will appear somewhere else or nowhere. That's not good experience.
- one way connections - to be honest, i didn't even try this mod, even if i like the idea itself. As far as i know capabilities of current mod engine, it can just remove orders to move from A to B(where defined). So you need, to check forbidden connections in the mod settings, memorize names (you can't click on it to check where it is) and find where it is. It might work if there are only few such connections on well-know map or very small map, but it sill be incovinient. On the other side - proper GUI(like arrows on borders between territories to show you can go only one way and unability to issue such order) could make it popular feature.

So, you are telling that if mod will be pretty popular the idea can be built in, but it will be hard for mods to get popularity because of different shortcomings of (current) mod engine. I don't know what's are further plans for mod engine, maybe it can be done better later. But at this point judging idea's popularity simply basing on mod's popularity is just not valid. At least in some cases (as ofc. there are mods that can work pretty well - name Nuke Card for example)
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