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3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 04:28:20


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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Since I made this thread http://warlight.net/Forum/Thread?ThreadID=13327 we have had 2 more boots decide games in the top 5 teams. Is this really necessary?
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 06:58:03


Unreality 
Level 50
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Ladder needs dedicated players.

from your post, I understand you enjoy great games with best moves from both side. You want the 2v2 ladder full with games like that.

However, ladder is about how much dedication you are willing to put into, too.

Apart from your skill level and understanding to the game, you are also required to work with your teammate, arranging discussion time per day, research opponents' playing style etc

It needs a lot of time to be spent. If you failed to do so, you failed the ladder requirement.

You could say that the autoboot game balance could be extended a bit, since too many players being booted, but I see it as a punishment to those really dedicated team.

It affects the ladder rankings, yes, too many teams earning false wins. However, the less dedicated teams deserved to receive the boot punishment.

It's hard to balance "dedication" & "# of good games". I dont disagree with your preference, but I just like 3 days booting more, as a requirement for dedication

Edited 11/24/2013 07:31:32
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 09:57:50


Taishō 
Level 57
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I think Unreality nailed it.

If you know your teammates style, then you should be able to do your part without the long team discussions and taking 3 days to sort out a plan for each move and if you do need that time, then make it.

Checking games and then giving some general tips on the team chat in the beginning is helpful, but really it's about responding and adapting and, as Unreality said a couple times, dedication. The top on the ladder are the best players/the most dedicated.

If it's too much for a player, then perhaps they should cut back on the number of multiday games they're playing. I know, tough love hurts, but sometimes that's how the hand is dealt.
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 10:10:26


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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Neither of these arguments convince me because you could just as well use them to argue for a 2 day boot.

Why should it be 3 days? Three days has shown itself to be too little time for lots of players. Telling them that it is their fault and they should make more time helps noone.
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 11:26:46


Pink 
Level 60
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@durty piggy, your argument also doesnt allow us to choose a reasonable amount of time for the boot. the thing is, if you decide to dicuss the moves as soon as the turn starts 3 days are more than enough
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 11:36:57


Unreality 
Level 50
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the balance adjustment is hard to do. my arguments are not for convincing you. my arguments are for covering the other factors that you havent covered.

someone likes 2 day, someone likes 3 day, or more. Each person can have his own preference. You are free to voice out yours. At the end its all about the Votes.

i believe if 80% 2v2 players agreed with ur settings, then Warlight will change.

You voted your vote. I posted to vote mine, although I dont mind using your setting too :)

Edited 11/24/2013 12:07:58
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 12:51:54


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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I think unless fizzer wanted it to change it wouldnt change, and that is no bad thing. I was hoping to change his mind, and repetition might be my best bet.
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 13:00:09


Unreality 
Level 50
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Well I think you needa change 80% (or the majority) of the 2v2 ladder players to have them change Fizzer's mind.

That means, I dont need to convince you, but you need to convince me and other players :)
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 13:07:22


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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It seems a vast majority of ladder players dont care enough about anything to make an effort to change it, and the few taht are knowlegable and vocal agree with me. Do you play much 2v2 ladder? if people getting booted all over the place doesnt get a reaction out of you then nothing will. that is literally the only thing that the boot timer does.

Edited 11/24/2013 13:09:43
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 13:11:54


Pink 
Level 60
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there arent all those many persons getting booted, and if they get booted is ebcause they dont acre all that much either, otherwise they would chaneg their way of playing
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 13:15:39


Unreality 
Level 50
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When people getting booted all over the place, I will suggest extending the boot time. It's not all over the place, yet.

It's not either "no one is being booted", or "people getting booted all over the place". It's not a 1 or 0 situation, dont exaggerate too much.

How to determine the threshold? For me I will say that, if even dedicated teams are being booted, then yes please extend.

Right now I don't see how a dedicated team can't come up with a decision within 3 days. Again this is just my preference, and again I dont disagree with your setting. You just need the majority to support your idea, and more reasons for them help to change their mind.

My 'dedication' reason is still a strong reason for me, and I will listen if you have a stronger reason, which you still haven't provided yet.

Edited 11/24/2013 13:18:04
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 13:25:13


Unreality 
Level 50
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and the few taht are knowlegable and vocal agree with me.
I only see your teammate gui agreeing with you in http://warlight.net/Forum/Thread?ThreadID=13327 , and that he means you aren't very cooperative so 3 days are not enough, :) I know he's kidding only but you need more to agree with you.

I do agree longer boot time provides more quality games

and I think 3 days boot time requires more dedication than longer boot time.

Both are fine for me, and I prefer 3 days boot time a bit more.

Edited 11/24/2013 13:25:28
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 13:29:41


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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"How to determine the threshold? For me I will say that, if even dedicated teams are being booted, then yes please extend."

Define dedicated teams. Me adn gui, Timi and ultimimaratio, schmidt and his teammate whos name escapes me right now, have all been booted in the last month or 2 these are not people known for fucking around.

There are a loooot of people getting booted, more than the 1v1 ladder, and because there are twice as many people per game more than 3 times as many games are being decided based on who gets booted. It is not 1/10 but more than 1/100.

Pinky people are getting booted because they care, and dont just want to smash out any old moves. You think timi just didnt give a shit? Didnt mind ruining his chance at getting first place? Give me a break.
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 13:36:35

Qi 
Level 55
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I think the only reasonable solution is a uservoice.
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 13:57:19


Unreality 
Level 50
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If they are really dedicated, they will try for every means to discuss the things, they will well organize their time, and lastly, they will share their password just in case emergency things hit the life.

Skilful hardcore players != well organized.

I'm not saying they are fucking around. They just haven't formed a good organized team.

Team games are about team work and communication. You can't communicate a result, then shouldn't you put more time or organize the discussion schedule better?

I'm not sure whether you really formed your own clan with your own alt playing team games as single person.

Anyway do you mind to tell me how you schedule the discussion and do you think you have tried your best to manage the communication time and still can't beat the 3 days booting time?

I'm not as skillful as timi, I think timi gives a shit, and a less skillful player like me do give a shit too, there's no difference, but I will try every means to ensure my team comes up with a move, and I will share my pass to my teammate. You wont make it to this level? That's ok.

Edited 11/24/2013 14:01:58
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 14:31:41


Unreality 
Level 50
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So far my team doesnt need to use each other password yet. We shared but we dont need this "last defence".

I am a lesser player, I am not as skillful as you guys, but pls dont look down on our communication content.

I research a lot, analyze a lot and write a lot to discuss with Dom365. We argue, we debate, and we tried hard. We dont beat the dreuj & brisk team just by luck. We have long conversations and analysis to predict their moves and counter them.

We are now battling the rank 1 gnuffone team and we spent a lot of time discuss and devise plans to beat them.

What I want to say is, a lesser team could have large volume of discussion content. And if a lesser skilled team want to beat former rank 1 team, they need to put even much more efforts in communication.

My team can make it, i dont see how others cant, yet.

It's not 1 or 0, there is no perfect boot time easily identified. But 3 days boot time is well enough for me

If you made an uservoice and vote for 4 days, I can support you and put my vote. 4 days setting is fine for me but I actually prefer 3 days

Edited 11/24/2013 14:35:58
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 14:56:33

Dom365 
Level 63
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This is why I love this guy! <3


A simple "no, Piggy. As with most of your threads, you're in the minority. Shh" would have sufficed, but Unreality loves a good essay!


I agree with him, FWIW - we spend a long time discussing things, both on Warlight chat and on Skype - we've stayed up to stupid hours or set alarms to get up super early to counter-act our differing time zones, and we've worked fairly well thus far. Finishing off Jupiter/Burrito, which we should do soon, will lift our rank, and if we beat Gnuffone/Beelz (still a big IF, it's no more than 50/50 atm), we could even top the pile.


And if we can have a stab at topping the pile, when we are two average/good players, who live in vastly different time-zones, then I think it shows that 3 days is adequate.
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 15:27:10


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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Its against WL rules to give out your password, so im not interested in being told that is a basic expectation not just of me but all players if we want a balanced 2v2 ladder.

Dom that is some serious dedication, again i understand it works for you, but cant you people see that if a 3 day boot *requires* that level of dedication then it suggests the boot timer is too short?
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 15:53:48

Dom365 
Level 63
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You and Gui are in very similar time-zones - if 3 days is not enough for you to discuss, then I don't know how long you expect..
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 21:05:46


hedja 
Level 58
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Skilful hardcore players != well organized.


either you dont know how to say "do not have to be" or you think that "skilful hardcore players=well organized", the second case resulting in you being very mistaken.

Also most people cannot be bothered to wake up very early in the morning or too late at night only for the 2v2 ladder, especially since it isn't that important anyway. Most people, if they want to speak, will just put all their ideas or questions onto chat and wait for team-mate to come online and answer them all at once. if you both come online often enough then 3 days is usually enough, but sometimes you cannot come online cos of an unexpected late night out or broken computer or internet or whatever, and then you get players booted.

Could I lastly ask what difference would extending the boot time apart from giving players extra time to stop these annoying free wins? All you guys have been doing is addressing the fact that 3 days should be long enough for most people, however please say why 4 days is in any way worse than 3.
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 22:25:43


Kenny • apex 
Level 59
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Synesthesia and I live in the same city, and yet have had a couple turns where we wanted to suggest a better moveset to the other player and weren't able to in time due to the boot. Sometimes I cannot make a turn in time, or I actually plan to make my turn in the 2 days range so that I can parse out how many turns I make a day. Make too many in a single sitting and I make mistakes. In 1v1 it's very simple, you're the only one accountable for your turn and you can consistently make it. Why I bring up not being able to change your partner's moveset is because it's equally as important as avoiding a boot. Both can make you lose, the boot being more immediate. It follows the same mindset, the 3 day boot really isn't long enough for a couple discussions to be held. It's too important. 4-5 day boot should be for the 2v2 ladder.
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 23:38:21


Pushover 
Level 59
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we've stayed up to stupid hours or set alarms to get up super early to counter-act our differing time zones


Hmm, this is the biggest barrier preventing me from rejoining the 2v2 ladder, as I keep thinking that I should play with someone in my own timezone (and who has the time to commit to it), which significantly shrinks the available pool of players...

What is your timezone difference, Dom/Unreality, and how often are you able to discuss your turns live? With some partners we pretty much have to play message tag (which is better suited for 5-7 day boot)
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/24/2013 23:55:32

Dom365 
Level 63
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My argument against extending the boot-time is simple - the 2v2 ladder progresses very slowly as it is (4 people per game, raising the chances of each turn going over 60 hours, fewer teams meaning fewer games) - I feel that raising the boot time would slowly suffocate the 2v2 to death.

What is your timezone difference, Dom/Unreality, and how often are you able to discuss your turns live? With some partners we pretty much have to play message tag (which is better suited for 5-7 day boot)

I'm GMT. He's whatever time-zone is in Hong Kong :P He's 9 hours ahead of me. We usually use my mornings/his evenings, although we'll sometimes use my late nights (I often work until 11PM, so being online at 00:00, or 1/2AM is not unusual) and his mornings to discuss things. In addition, of one of us has time whilst the other sleeps, we'll analyse games from our different aspects.

Additionally, if we know that we'll be unavailable at a specific period, then we'll let each other know in advance, so we can arrange a time to talk.

Edited 11/25/2013 00:57:50
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/25/2013 00:20:32


Unreality 
Level 50
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hedja, != is very common in programming language, which means "not equal to" :) i am sorry for using this alien sign

i dont oppose to 4 days.

however, piggy, hedja and lolowut all just complain about lack of time without stating how you plan your discussuion schedule. Do you just leave msg in game? Have you used skype whatsapp line wechat or any other instant messengers?

I mean, have you done any basic works in scheduling to keep the discussion running smooth? Nobody gives me a real answer yet to the basic requirement of team communication.

Edited 11/25/2013 00:28:41
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/25/2013 00:33:24


Unreality 
Level 50
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*removed

Edited 11/25/2013 00:59:19
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/25/2013 00:42:37


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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We just leave messages in game, we dont use skype or webchat because that would be no different really. Most ladder teams do not come online to chat RT they are people with families, demanding jobs and social lives. We play the game for fun to relax, we would rather risk getting booted than have it turn into another chore. Players on the 2v2 ladder try to use holiday to structure their time better, at any given time there will be a top 2v2 ladder game being stalled for a week by someone on holiday because they simply have a busy work week. Theyre more likely to actually play WL during a holiday. I dont know if 4 days is enough, I would recommend 5. The ladder will become even slower, but most would be very happy to see that happen. Have you noticed that most teams are playing 2 games at a time? Very unlike the 1v1 ladder. It is because they want a slower ladder.
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/25/2013 00:47:55


Unreality 
Level 50
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There is a different in using instant messenger. Just give a try.

It wont disturb the real life, but your partner can receive the msg and perhaps start to think and analyze while not in the game during some life break.

There is also plenty of other ways too to deal with the communication problem, you are smart but you just refuse to solve it
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/25/2013 00:55:31

JSA 
Level 59
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Hmm, I agree and disagree with Piggy. Right now, I am very active and hate the two day wait between turns in the 2v2 ladder. Myself and Willow have gotten our orders in within a day each turn so far I believe. However, back before I took my break from warlight, I played with Chris and Pulsey and got booted in 4-5 games with them.

Overall, I think 4 days is the perfect boot time for the 2v2 ladder. Any longer than that, and games can easily last 2-3 months. With 3 days, there are too many boots.
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/25/2013 01:22:12


Kenny • apex 
Level 59
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Dom and Unreality, is there not a problem with the amount of boots happening in the 2v2 ladder right now? In my ladder run with Synesthesia, 3 matches have been ruined by boot. 2 were at picks so we did replacements. The function of the ladder is to provide competition with easily seen results (ratings and rank). The function of the ladder is not to be speedy. JSA, I would like to point out you're STARTING your ladder run, the current teams you're facing don't require as much discussion as others will.

Skype is cool, but it doesn't really speed up discussion. If my partner is around skype, he also sees my messages ingame and is already replying. I find myself sometimes discussing things ingame with Frank despite both of us being actively on skype.

Piggy and I aren't even complaining about being booted, we're complaining about our OPPONENTS being booted. When top teams are constantly getting booted, then why is this such a ridiculous thing to ask for?
3 day boot is not long enough on the 2v2 ladder: 11/25/2013 02:29:04


Unreality 
Level 50
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i think i have repeated multiple times that i am fine with 4 days setting, and i understand your reason behind

Is asking how u schedule your discussion time made u think that I treated your request as ridiculous? pls calm down, i have also said i will support piggy's uservoice vote :)

Edited 11/25/2013 02:30:51
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