Fact: 5/5 of the actual top 5 on the 1vs1 ladder wouldn't be top 5 if many good players wouldn't reject to play on this template.

What's Chutes and Ladders? Do you mean Snakes and Ladders?

@mod
That's not a fact, ACL Tears and HHH have been #1 on the old template.
And your argument does not even try to explain or whatsover the increase of players in the ladder. It's just a subjective statement with the intention to bring down the players who actually enjoy the template.

Cade My Favorite Game Is Called Chutes And Ladders. We Play It All The Time In My Home In San Diego.

Ragnarok: Timinator had a good argument for that: it's easier to play on ladder now, you used to require membership, now it's just levelling up and anyone who plays warlight regularly can reach the level requirements for ladders in a few weeks.

I also agree with mod the ladder used to have harder to beat players then it does now. Wouldn't say it's completely because of the settings though. Many people just retired from warlight.

Ps, I don't think HHH's stats go that far back. So timinator's point is valid and there might be some truth in it, but it's relevance is not as big as you think. There are many new players to the ladder whose level is above 54.

Just Fact:

Sze
Gnuff
JSA
Piggy
MoD
Timi
Impaler
Dunga
Beezlbu
Latnox

Would be the top 10 if they all joined the ladder. You could stall as much as you want (and do), these would beat the top 5 for sure.

Unfortunately 70-90% of these people would/do think that the old template is better.

Edited 2/15/2016 18:48:03

It is no big deal to become #1 right know ( rating ~2400 due to inflated ratings is easily possible ), but this template is boring shit, counting your opponents income all the time after picking lottery is no fun.

easy solution: have two 1v1 ladders, old and new. everybody is happy

3v3 ladder is perfect if you are not overworked or if you aren't a good student. when i was a university student i never spent time playing games. I was reading and studying as much as I could. now I am overworked. i don't have time or patience for bean counting. each time i joined the 3v3 ladder my work or life would force me to make a decision: waste time on a template i don't enjoy playing or focus on what is more important to my job or life.

to play the 3v3 ladder at the highest possible level requires too much time. wr with random moves not only decreases the time invested, it also adds strategic wrinkles and slows down expansion and countering: 3v2s leaving behind 2 each time offers too little friction. new players who don't understand strategy as much tend to love games with faster growth and less friction. they enjoy throwing armies around. they dislike being forced to make thoughtful decisions about how to use scarce resources. so fizzer made everything sr: quicker expansion, less friction, bad players get the extra armies they prefer.

top players that like sr like it for its certainty. why can't we keep the certainty but increase the friction?

i would like sr 0% so much more if 3v2s always left behind 1 army and 4v2s always left behind 2 armies. 2 leftovers (3v2) and 3 leftovers (4v2) are the maximum lertovers in 0% wr, they should not be the norm. the mean between two extremes should be the norm.

in a game of 10 to 20 turns, all those extra armies do two things: people gain delays without earning them and the maximum leftovers function as a hidden bonus. doing more by deploying less and having more leftovers floods the board with too many eftra armies. and if you keep the standard +5 reinforcement card (implemented when wr was the norm!), the effect is too many damn armies.

Edited 2/15/2016 19:27:37

Benjamin, do you have any proof besides your opinion that these guys would be top 10 in this template? If you look at HHH's coin games records he can easily prove you wrong.

Edited 2/15/2016 19:09:05

"Fizzer Round" (FR):

SR as the base rounding tool, but Fizzer manually adjusts some of the outcomes. For example, 3v2 always leaves behind 1, 4v2 always leaves behind 2.

I tried tinkering with attack and defense ratios with SR. But to get more friction for lighter attacks causes way too much friction for heavier attacks. My conclusion: a new system (FR) is needed to apply the math in a way that better suits certain templates.

I make many templates. Sometimes WR 0% better suits the map and settings; sometimes SR is better; sometimes neither is ideal. Add FR and there would be more good templates.

Another Option (instead of FR):

If we can manually adjust bonus values on maps (and now with commanders we can leave behind 0 army on occupied territory), we should also be able to adjust SR leftovers. Call it "Manual SR (MSR).

Highlight it in settings whenever it is used, so people are aware when they join the game. Having a bonus means you have deployable income. Leftovers function as hidden income or -- in the case of the worst possible outcomes with WR -- negative income (ie, you have to deploy more the next turn and have less to deploy elsewhere).

MSR or FR would make me like the certainty of SR without feeling the template's dynamics have too little friction.

Edited 2/16/2016 01:56:08

@Ragnarok so you are saying that I MIGHT be 1/5th wrong? Good enough for you I guess...

I really love all of Strategos' posts so far. They are spot on.

Why would you might be wrong? I told you where you can find the evidence.
Anyway, there is no 1/5 right or wrong. Either you are or you aren't.
Even if those players are better individually than the current top 10, it does not necessarily mean they would outperform them in ladder.
I'll use Krzychu as an exemple. He beats me 7/10 games in the current 1v1 ladder template, but if you look at our rating, you'll see it's quite different. So unless your A team is going to join and prove you're right, you should not debunk those who are in the top now.

@Ragnarok: Almost nobody who has a idea of complex warlight strategy would ever join a ladder like this ( excluding Acl, Odin and some others ). We will never found out if they beat you because nobody of them (including me) is interesting in wasting their time.

Gui: ChrisCMU mentioned in another thread that kill rate at 75% gives in 0% SR leftovers of 1. that it might solve the issue.

i tried tinkering with attack and defense ratios with sr. to get more friction for lighter attacks causes way too much friction for heavier attacks. my conclusion: a new system (fr) is needed to apply the math in a way that better suits certain templates.
@ps You need to read what others put completely -_-. Gui is aware of that possibility, but 75% might give 1 leftovers, but it also changes attacks on general during exchanges, which is not what Gui wants I think.

75% isn't so far off of 70%. I think you might be able to come up with a rebalancing that is still fun to play. It will require adjusting the attack rate to make typical exchanges more 'fair'. I bet it would also require adjusting bonus values, base income, starting armies, and reinforce card amounts to get it 'just right', without too much 'friction'.

Remember that the current (and old) settings were honed after a long time of playing, so it will not be very simple to get things 'just right' after only making one or two adjustments to the settings. It will probably require some play-testing with a variety of slightly different settings to get into a 'sweet spot' where 4v2 leaves 2 and 3v2 leaves 1, and everything else still feels just about right.

It is true that some small changes could make things much more customizable, which would allow anyone to *just* change those two outcomes without affecting anything else. I doubt it'll happen soon, though. Fizzer seems to be trying to make settings simpler (for newbies), and avoiding suggestions which would make them more complex (for enthusiasts). (I think that's a mistake, but it is what it is.)

Edited 2/16/2016 00:35:56

Benjamin, do you have any proof besides your opinion that these guys would be top 10 in this template? If you look at HHH's coin games records he can easily prove you wrong.

Your ladder records / holding tops spots in both ladders means nothing. Timinator's current 1987 rating (https://www.warlight.net/LadderTeam?LadderTeamID=855) wipes your but. You have to give them legends 300 grace points (the amount of grace points Benjamin gives himself) due to them not focusing on shitty settings so 1987 + 300 = 2287 and Timinator is the real current number 1.

YouMustBeKidding me. Timi has 2 unexpired games you complete idiot.

I never said ever I should have 300 points more than I do now. I am about 1600 (Peak), with shitty expired games. Call me in 3 months when I break 1700-1800 and shove it your bot's asshole.

Edited 2/16/2016 01:01:58