and the possibility to live among people that share your culture in ghettos

Are ghettos still tolerated in Europe? Shameful.

Muscles don't work without ligaments.

I honestly like your analogy, but unfortunately it's not true: The heart, arrector pili muscles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrector_pili_muscle), the smooth muscle of the gastro-intestinal tract (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_gastrointestinal_tract#Muscular_layer), and probably other examples. There are also many animals that literally have no (or very few) bones or shells, and hence no (or very few) ligaments: Octopuses, worms, jellyfish, slugs, sponges, nudibranchs, anemones, and probably many others.

Edited 2/5/2016 16:05:18

tl;dr most of it, but saw this: " Do you have any personal ties to France?"
Yes, I do. My mother and grandmother are Belgians descended from French, and I have visited France several times. Furthermore, American and French culture, while different, are fairly close and i can relate to them.

Also, xpapy seems to be making idiotic statements on the micro level, such as
"Also, all things considered, I think Syria was considerable better under Bashar Assad.


Who is it under now?"

Seriously, do you actually not know, or do you think Assad still rules? Either way, you're an idiot.

You also compare Bulgars and Albanians in the same way we compare Western and Muslim. There are many similarities between various ethnic cultures in Europe, while Islam is fundamentally opposed to the West. Look at polls of how many Muslims in the West support terrorists.


"I understand the need to bring your culture with you, but it goes too far when it interferes with the lives of those who aren't part of your culture.


It's usually not just culture, but murders, and violent bandits, which are transcultural."
Murder may be 'transcultural', but look at Nordic crime rates before/after refugees entered.


"Köln: No deaths. "Syrian orphans": Unfathomably many deaths."
We are upset because the rapes of hundreds are quite preventable. The Syrians are at war; Europe is not. War expects casualties. Peace does not. Again, I will not apologize for the fact I care more for relatable Westerners than Muslims.


"1 murder? That's all you've to say for cultural clashes? And this isn't culture, as I say before - it's banditry."
More than one (see 15 year old boy stabbed for protecting female counterpart). Also, hundreds of rapes and men who look into schoolyards at little girls. And this is certainly culture; the Muslim culture disrespects women and gives these men justification for their crimes. Notice the lack of rape in the Nordic countries before tens of thousands of Muslims entered.


" Just since Arabic culture is obviously different from Swedish culture doesn't mean anything."
It does when Swedish culture allows women to dress loosely and Arab culture allows them to rape them. THEN it becomes a problem.


"This was such a small happening, I recall reading a short news article the day after about it, but pretty much forgot. Noone else talked about it afterwards. I don't believe it's being "antagonised". "
Maybe, but the fact "Noone else talked about it afterwards" is rather worrying, yes? If hundreds of neo-Nazis raped hundreds on New Years, there would be considerable backlash and coverage. The fact their skin is brown makes them a protected class to media members.

"So why do you propose more war?"
because if we don't half-ass it and we go in guns blazing and utterly ruthless, we can save lives and actually have less war in the long run. Look at The March to the Sea by Sherman; he broke the Confederacy and brought the war to a close far sooner than it otherwise would have bee, thus saving lives.

Edited 2/5/2016 16:42:12

Xapy, what is "the Maxwell Spread"? Googled it and found nothing related to this discussion, so I'm at a loss. (Also, I haven't read this whole thread, so I may have missed it.)

I'm surprised you didn't find it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%E2%80%93Boltzmann_distribution

I honestly like your analogy, but unfortunately it's not true: The heart, arrector pili muscles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrector_pili_muscle), the smooth muscle of the gastro-intestinal tract (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_gastrointestinal_tract#Muscular_layer), and probably other examples. There are also many animals that literally have no (or very few) bones or shells, and hence no (or very few) ligaments: Octopuses, worms, jellyfish, slugs, sponges, nudibranchs, anemones, and probably many others.

Well, the picture in my mind was a human without any ligaments, how good would the muscles be for him? But point taken.

Yes, I do. My mother and grandmother are Belgians descended from French, and I have visited France several times. Furthermore, American and French culture, while different, are fairly close and i can relate to them.

Then that's justifiable.

Who is it under now?"

Seriously, do you actually not know, or do you think Assad still rules> Either way, you're an idiot.

Bashar Assad still rules 1/3 of the country, and has the coveted UN "formal recognition" of being Syria's ruler.

@Жұқтыру

I am honestly not sure if you're an SJW, or just an eristic. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and go with the latter.

---

The Gulf States aren't accepting any migrants, and they should, but they aren't. Jordan is already overflowing, with 20% its population now Syrian refugees, and it is not getting enough help, and Turkey could do better, though it seems to me like it's doing far better than EU. The UN humanitarian fund grant Syrians in Jordan is what, 30 or 40% of what was promised?

I think it's lower than 30%, and it's completely unacceptable. We should financially back these countries with 100% or more of what we've promised.

---

And why does geography matter? Obviously practically, it's easiest to get there, but otherwise?

I refer to my statement regarding cultural clashes (Notice how it's plural, I'm sorry I only gave one example, I refer to the interwebs for more.)

---

Well, in my opinion, the welfare system in Europe should be greatly lowered, but anyhow, it's there, but the proud Muslims who find a "ghetto", well, there will be a foreign community. They dissolve, just slower (think sugarcube in water ag. sugar dust in water). So what? In the Ukrainian SW panhandle, ethnic Ukrainians are the majority by far, but there are several foreign towns, Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Gagauz. I don't think the Ukrainian culture is somehow getting infested with Balkan culture.

I agree. It should either be lowered or better governed. Let's not try to copy America though. Ghettos don't resolve. That's what the last 40 years have shown anyone observing any country in Europe. Sure, some people settle down in smaller towns etc. but those are the exception, not the rule.

---

Maybe, but can and will the other countries give that care?

We should fund it, they should host it. There are several countries already doing it, it's just not funded, so famine is an actual problem in the refugee camps there.

---

Culturally, it's a diverse match. Just since Arabic culture is obviously different from Swedish culture doesn't mean anything. The Syrians probably had to adapt their outlooks due to their situation, and there's no grounds why it shouldn't happen again.

I am all for integration and assimilation, but the fact of the matter is, that a big percentage of these cultures simple doesn't do either, but instead establish parallel societies within ghettos.

---

1 murder? That's all you've to say for cultural clashes? And this isn't culture, as I say before - it's banditry.

Do you understand the general meaning of 'most recently'? It was meant as an example. I refer to the interwebs for more, or if you're not sure how to properly use google, I can provide you with links to horrendous videos, articles about cologne new years eve, everyday life in Sweden, etc. etc.

Considering that most other migrating cultures doesn't establish organized crime gangs, parallel societies, attack women, belittle women and so forth, I am positive that this is more than just banditry.

---

And 3 is not a humane choice.

"International laws are broken all the time, as long as you are in NATO, it'll be fine to break some."

Didn't you just say that? If Syria loses the majority of their upper working class and upper class, then it will just a matter of time, before we get another conflict there.

---

So?

So we are depriving Syria of well-educated people, so that they can clean our staircases, drive us around, pick up our garbage, etc. It might seem like a win/win situation, but it's actually the opposite.

---

Even assuming that their whole family was captured and not killed, and the family tie was known, there still are going to be at least 1/4 who can't bring themselves to that sacrifice. So "expand" on that.

While I do not have any first hand information about Islamic State, or other groups that are active in Syria, I do have first hand knowledge of how Talibob worked. They were surprisingly well informed, and family ties would easily be discovered. All information do however point to ISIL being more organized than Taliban.

Edited 2/6/2016 00:15:01

I am honestly not sure if you're an SJW, or just an eristic. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and go with the latter.

That's not a good beginning to your speech, especially when I had to look up SJW and eristic (and I said cool it with the jargon, D to the Dumbass), and pretty sure those are insults. I just find it easier to go by arguments bit by bit, and it's harder (for me, anyway) to build an argument rather than to show how bad all the other arguments are. I do not "argue for the sake of conflict, as opposed to resolving conflict.".

I agree. It should either be lowered or better governed. Let's not try to copy America though. Ghettos don't resolve. That's what the last 40 years have shown anyone observing any country in Europe. Sure, some people settle down in smaller towns etc. but those are the exception, not the rule.

You haven't really said what's bad about "ghetti". And America has some bad leftist policies, much less than EU, still, though.

Maybe, but can and will the other countries give that care?

We should fund it, they should host it. There are several countries already doing it, it's just not funded, so famine is an actual problem in the refugee camps there.

Who is we? We're not rulers of countries, here. Noone important is going to listen. While what you say would be good, it's not going to happen.

Do you understand the general meaning of 'most recently'? It was meant as an example. I refer to the interwebs for more, or if you're not sure how to properly use google, I can provide you with links to horrendous videos, articles about cologne new years eve, everyday life in Sweden, etc. etc.

Considering that most other migrating cultures doesn't establish organized crime gangs, parallel societies, attack women, belittle women and so forth, I am positive that this is more than just banditry.

I bet 9999/10000 these migrants did nothing. All your evidence here is mostly just incidents and not heuristic stats. I can show you cases where a German murdered another German, well, time to get the violent German culture out of Germany, and save its folk from these barbarians.

"International laws are broken all the time, as long as you are in NATO, it'll be fine to break some."

Didn't you just say that? If Syria loses the majority of their upper working class and upper class, then it will just a matter of time, before we get another conflict there.

It's one thing to do something to someone that they don't like, it's a much worse thing if you sentence them to rot to be killed within 5 days.

So we are depriving Syria of well-educated people, so that they can clean our staircases, drive us around, pick up our garbage, etc. It might seem like a win/win situation, but it's actually the opposite.

Again, everyone as human earns the right to move from their country if they want to. Even if they stayed in Jordan or Turkey, secondworld countries, they're not going to want to go to some country that's had every building built of brick smashed to smithereens. Country be damned, as I said earlier.

While I do not have any first hand information about Islamic State, or other groups that are active in Syria, I do have first hand knowledge of how Talibob worked. They were surprisingly well informed, and family ties would easily be discovered. All information do however point to ISIL being more organized than Taliban.

That's fair enough. An answer then, is to have a sniper follow them about for a few months.

To begin with, we have to understand the root cause of the Syrian Civil War. It was not Assad slaughtering his citizens that led to rebels, the FSA was organized by the nearby Sunni countries. Saudi Arabia and Turkey especially, and within weeks there was NATO planes flying illegally into Syrian airspace aiding and assisting them. There's numerous leaked recordings, videos and documents of Turkish and Saudi involvement in the war and the fact they think ISIS is a tool that can be manipulated. The whole "Assad used gas on citizens!" is a complete lie that's been debunked. The Turkish government in particular has been extremely involved, Saudi would be more but they're busy in Yemem. This is not an opinion, this is a well-documented fact. The Western coalition funds the FSA, but these are not "moderate" rebels like you hear so many politicians preach it. It's a fact that they work alongside ISIS, sell weapons cheaply to ISIS/Al-Qaeda and they themselves kill civilians indiscriminately. Once again, this is not an opinion but a fact. There's hundreds of videos of the FSA killed civilians, strangely not that many of the Syrian army. Weird how that goes, huh? The FSA itself is a bunch of factions, it's not a well-organized group in the first place and their objectives are fairly unclear other than overthrow Assad and help ISIS.

There's historical feuds between these Sunni and Shi'a countries, but even putting aside that there's extremely geopolitical reasons why countries like Turkey are so involved. The Kurds. Or better yet known as a people with tens of millions but no country, who've been committing terrorist attacks in Turkey and fighting in Syria/Iraq for Kurdistan. Their country, not a zone in Iraq that they're "allowed" to be automated. We're talking a country they control, which takes a chunk out of Iraq/Syria/Turkey and is called Kurdistan. This is extremely hard for Turkey since they see the Kurds as terrorists that're willing to do pretty much anything indiscriminately to make this a reality. The PKK (Kurdish group in Turkey) has committed terrorism, while they have different goals they do work together with the Syrian group of Kurds. Turkey is deathly scared of Kurdistan becoming a reality, it's a two-way road and Turkey has committed atrocities against the Kurdish people. Basically, since the Kurds are already autonomous in Iraq and if they win in Syria they'll be practically guaranteed a slice of land... all eyes will be pointed towards Turkey.

The actual solutions to the problems
1) Western coalition stops helping the FSA
2) Impose sanctions on countries that help ISIS and other terrorists in Syria.
3) Enact a travel ban to Syria.
4) Start helping Assad and be in a situation where they can ensure in 2021 he'll leave office when his term is up.
5) Have a military safezone in Syria, under agreement with the Syrian government.
6) Stop taking in refugees, 4/5 of them aren't even Syrians. Most of them are from poorly developed African and Asian countries and rape our women, fuck that.

Then just sit back and let the Syrian government win with help from other countries like Iran and Russia with organized coordinated attacks on ISIS with the Syrian government instead of this senseless and hypocritical foreign bombing policies in most Western countries that help and kill ISIS at the same time. We've seen the Syrian government winning dramatically in the past few months, we can't mess this up.

"everyone as human earns the right to move from their country if they want to."
Says who? I don't believe that anyone should be able to go anywhere they want. They should stay there and fix their problems, not give them to us.

I used to be a sort of war hawk (I believed the US should intervene as much as is possible.)

My opinions have greatly changed, though.

In my opinion, the US should just leave ISIS to be dealt with by Russia and Syria, with the sole thing I think we should do being to recognize Kurdistan as an independent nation.

Here's an idea for everyone!

Lets all pull out of the Middle East and not give aid to any of them, in 25 years they'll either all be dead or fix their own fucking problems.

All of this after Obama stops being a pussy and turns ISIS into a road of bodies (which he won't do, because he is a Muslim too).

Stop trying to align yourself away from Obama. You're both nationalistic , conservative and in favor of killing foreigners by the thousands, except he actually has.

Obama isn't nationalistic...

He's the president, that's one of the most nationalistic/patriotic things you can be , besides a Uncle Sam cosplayer or a G.I circa 1942.

Well, he's changed his outlooks since, but in 2009, he got a lot of hate for not being nationalist, for "denying America's heart and soul" (I think Mike Huckabee said this) for saying something like "I believe in American Exceptionalism, just as I strongly suspect the Brits believe in British Exceptionalism, and the Greeks in Greek Exceptionalism.".

MGSB: I think your confusing "patriotic" and "lucrative".

I believe that Obama is as patriotic as Hitler was Zionist.

I used to be a sort of war hawk (I believed the US should intervene as much as is possible.)

My opinions have greatly changed, though.

This was exactly me before 2012. The one thing that I hoped Obama would actually do was be more non-interventionist than the Neocons and War-Hawks that were still pulling the strings after the fall of communism. I remember being (falsely and sadly I regret it) an ardent supporter and defender of the Iraq Invasion and defending Bush's Middle East Policy and War on Terror. I was naive to think regime change could work and that we could spend our way to setting up democracy in the Middle East. All it got us was a strong Military-Industrial Complex, a Totalitarian Police State through the Patriot Act and creation of the DHS and NSA, and an even more entrenched War Hawk coalition within the Democratic and Republican Parties.

America's foundation is as a non-interventionist state and we've strayed away from that. We have no interest in arming Ukraine or sending missiles to the Baltics. We have no interest in preventing Russia via a no-fly zone from helping to defeat terrorists. We have no interest in prodding a conflict with China by sending warships to the South China Sea. There is very little damage that anybody can do to the USA militarily due to our geographic position and military might. When Obama came to office, I had hoped that he would end the old ways of foreign policy and bring an end to the power of Neo-Cons. But he turned out to be interventionist himself - in Libya, in Syria, in Ukraine - and that is one of the reasons I turned to Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan as my political and philosophical sources of thought.

Edited 2/6/2016 04:24:18

I used to lean very heavily towards interventionism. However, over the past few years I've come to realize that throwing away so many of our own resources trying to solve the problems of other countries is really stupid. If we focused our military just on protecting U.S soil we'd save a lot of cash that could be spent in other areas.

However, we also have to avoid becoming head-in-the-sand isolationists who ignore what's going on around them. As with most things, a moderate and balanced approach is needed when it comes to foreign policy.

To begin with, we have to understand the root cause of the Syrian Civil War. It was not Assad slaughtering his citizens that led to rebels, the FSA was organized by the nearby Sunni countries. Saudi Arabia and Turkey especially, and within weeks there was NATO planes flying illegally into Syrian airspace aiding and assisting them. There's numerous leaked recordings, videos and documents of Turkish and Saudi involvement in the war and the fact they think ISIS is a tool that can be manipulated. The whole "Assad used gas on citizens!" is a complete lie that's been debunked. The Turkish government in particular has been extremely involved, Saudi would be more but they're busy in Yemem. This is not an opinion, this is a well-documented fact. The Western coalition funds the FSA, but these are not "moderate" rebels like you hear so many politicians preach it. It's a fact that they work alongside ISIS, sell weapons cheaply to ISIS/Al-Qaeda and they themselves kill civilians indiscriminately. Once again, this is not an opinion but a fact. There's hundreds of videos of the FSA killed civilians, strangely not that many of the Syrian army. Weird how that goes, huh? The FSA itself is a bunch of factions, it's not a well-organized group in the first place and their objectives are fairly unclear other than overthrow Assad and help ISIS.

There's historical feuds between these Sunni and Shi'a countries, but even putting aside that there's extremely geopolitical reasons why countries like Turkey are so involved. The Kurds. Or better yet known as a people with tens of millions but no country, who've been committing terrorist attacks in Turkey and fighting in Syria/Iraq for Kurdistan. Their country, not a zone in Iraq that they're "allowed" to be automated. We're talking a country they control, which takes a chunk out of Iraq/Syria/Turkey and is called Kurdistan. This is extremely hard for Turkey since they see the Kurds as terrorists that're willing to do pretty much anything indiscriminately to make this a reality. The PKK (Kurdish group in Turkey) has committed terrorism, while they have different goals they do work together with the Syrian group of Kurds. Turkey is deathly scared of Kurdistan becoming a reality, it's a two-way road and Turkey has committed atrocities against the Kurdish people. Basically, since the Kurds are already autonomous in Iraq and if they win in Syria they'll be practically guaranteed a slice of land... all eyes will be pointed towards Turkey.

These paragraphes is mostly taking some extreme speculations (but possible, but unproven) and literally saying that it is 100% true. Could you at least source your things?

"everyone as human earns the right to move from their country if they want to."
Says who? I don't believe that anyone should be able to go anywhere they want. They should stay there and fix their problems, not give them to us.

This is a bad mentality, it's not "their" problem. It's their government's problem, and it's some rebels' problem, which is now literally hurting just about everyone in the country. As human, you earn the right not to be killed. And the problems given to "us" is extremely relatively little.

This is a bad mentality, it's not "their" problem. It's their government's problem, and it's some rebels' problem,

"Their" government is "their" problem. Syrians are citizens and thus responsible for their government's policies and actions. We cannot assume responsibility for an internal civil war that we had nothing to do with.

You've caused the deaths of thousands, because you're American.