Jesus was not present ( in the bible record at least ) at the beginning of creation, god was

So Jesus can't be God, or this sentence has no logic (i dont mean the human body of Jesus, i mean Jesus aka God aka Yahweh aka The Creator aka The Holy Spirit)

Edited 2/2/2016 21:54:43

First, Killing gays was something the jews did on there own, The TC never said that's how to deal with them. Basiclly, Your acting as if Jesus' set up a new CT going against god which is not true. None of Jesus' teachings went against the TC, What it went against was the traditional jewish customs and laws that developed based upon them

God And Jesus are two separate things ok? if we get these two mixed up it will be very confusing ( I think I confused it awhile back actually )

GOD: Jesus' farther, author of the TC, ect


JESUS: Gods son, did not appear until the NT, completely different

Jesus' teachings contradict most everything we consider wrong in the Old Testament. From his actions to his parables, Jesus has been shown to portray a different light of life than what is seen in the Old Testament. Jesus' first coming and going was the New Covenant, the latest addition. Why follow old rules?

Anyway, I think I have made my point. I hope hitch and Wct you can both see why I, a Christian, justifies supporting gay marriage

so Jesus(son), and God(father) are 2 different divinities then?

No.

Conservative is simply poor at theology.

people think jesus was there to change the law, overthrow the priests and enforce his new laws. That is not at all true. Jesus simply was telling people " Hey look, I am not here to overthrow anyone or change the official law.

Ohhh! I think I see where there's a miscommunication. You called it 'the official law', seemingly referring to laws made by humans. But in the Bible passages quoted earlier, it's referred to as 'the Law', as in, 'God's Law', as in, 'the Commandments' that this god supposedly gave to Moses and whoever it was who took up the job after Moses.

So when Jesus supposedly says 'I'm not here to challenge the Law' (paraphrased, not quoted, hence no " quotation marks; see how that works, guys?), he wasn't saying 'I'm not here to cause trouble with the human authorities', he was supposedly saying 'I'm not here to say that God's Laws have changed. His Laws are unchanged. You still have to follow them. I'm saying something in addition to those Laws.'

This is why fundies are obsessed with the 10 Commandments. (BTW, there are many many more Commandments than just the famous 10 (which themselves are actually more than 10); I seem to recall there are something in the neighbourhood of 600 or so total; various people dispute which ones are 'the ones we must follow' vs. 'the ones we can ignore', but of 'the ones actually claimed to be given from god', I'm pretty sure it's around 600.)

i understand your reasoning The Conservative. And while i'm glad that you ditched the Old Testament (one more to go :D ), i just don't understand the logic that leads to it, that's all

But fine, we can call it

Edited 2/2/2016 22:00:43

What is this pointless conversation?

poor The Conservative, cornered between 2 atheists and 1 fundamentalist...lol

Im not a fundamentalist.

Im not even really a Christian.

No god created everything. Jesus came in after the OT as the son of god. Jesus was not present ( in the bible record at least ) at the beginning of creation, god was. I think your main confusion is based upon your getting god and Jesus' mixed up which is understandable

You may want to look into the concept of the Logos, aka 'the Word', which is referenced in Gospel of John: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos_%28Christianity%29

Christ as the logos

Christian theologians often consider John 1:1 to be a central text in their belief that Jesus is God, in connection with the idea that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equals. Though only in this verse is Jesus referred to as the Word of God, the theme recurs throughout the Gospel of John with variations.[1]

John 1:1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1%3A1&version=ESV) reads:

John 1:1English Standard Version (ESV)
The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Many self-proclaimed Christians interpret this to mean that Jesus (aka the Word; from the Greek 'Logos') was present at the supposed creation of the universe, at literally the very beginning of the OT narrative. In other words, the OT *starts* the story of Jesus. That's why so many fundamentalists are preoccupied with the OT, Genesis, the 10 Commandments, and all that.

Anyway, I think I have made my point. I hope hitch and Wct you can both see why I, a Christian, justifies supporting gay marriage

I'm glad you do, for sure. And I do understand the argument you are trying to make.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's an argument that will work on fundamentalists, for the very reasons I'm trying to illuminate with the Jesus-in-the-OT angle that many many Christians believe.

I don't believe Jesus was at the supposed creation, of course. I'm only trying to show that *many Christians* do believe that.

So if you don't address their beliefs about Jesus, and hence their beliefs in the importance of the OT, then I don't believe your argument will work very well on those kinds of believers.

Uh..uh...

Edited 2/2/2016 22:44:14

@wct

But even if you somehow get past the "Jesus = The Word = God",
you still have Jesus = the one and only God. I never could understand how christian could be fine with the Jesus is God but he is the Son who is different from the Father who is also God. And adding the Holy Ghost on top of that doesn't make it clearer

wow first religious-social-political "debate" I'm not apart of. Feels good. #SelfControl

Jai, I'm tapping you in.

*slaps away Tyrion's hand*

It's over, now. No one else needs to be involved.

True, but the debate... this is the worst debate ever.

It was a debate between people who were agreeing... the worst kind of stupidity...