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Something Different: 10/20/2015 13:38:13


[AOE]Orthrus Echo Five
Level 51
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I don't know if this has ever been talked about, but either way, I want to bring it up. I find it something worthwhile to talk about.

I want there to be an AI difficulty setting.

Now before you shoot it down as ridiculous, let me tell you my reasoning. I play a ton of Real-Time games. They are my favorite to play, but I always see more Multi-Day games on the front page. I'm not the best at WarLight, so I like to play more experienced players, to get practice and become better at the game. If there is never anyone to play, then how do I practice and get better? Well, AI difficulty in Single Player.

So the concept is basically something that would be added into the settings options in creating a single player game, along with Initial Distribution, Armies, Cards, etc. I don't know how Fizzer would code different AI levels to make them harder to fight, if he would change their tactics to more defensive or aggressive, is beyond me. I just play the game, and this is something I know I would use almost every day if it were available to me.

Let me know what you guys think. I would really appreciate it.
Something Different: 10/20/2015 13:49:23


ʧillynamenace
Level 57
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Good idea in principle, but hard to implement probably - especially if you consider the fact that Fizzer focuses more on coins-based features of WL.
Something Different: 10/20/2015 13:50:17


MightySpeck (a Koala) 
Level 58
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Something Different: 10/20/2015 14:01:27


###NooB SmAsHeR###
Level 55
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so what's the use of joining a clan of 172 members when you get no one to play with when you want to?
Something Different: 10/20/2015 15:14:10

wct
Level 56
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A simple way to increase the difficulty of playing against the AI is to play against teams of them. I used to play lots of single player, and after a while it didn't matter if I was playing against 24 individual AIs, they are easy to beat. But if you set it up so that they are 12 teams of 2, then it's harder. 8 teams of 3 is harder still. 6 teams of 4, etc. For such games, usually larger maps are better to give at least one AI team time to 'gel' into a strong opponent.

You will also want to play around with the card settings, as the more players on an AI team the more frequently large reinforce cards will mess with you.

Other settings that are sensitive to multi-AI teams: Starting distribution (manual/auto, warlords/cities, number of starting spots), base income, etc.

This is a pretty good way of adjusting the difficulty of the AI to pretty much as hard as you want it to be.

One good thing of practicing this way is that eventually you'll get so good at out-playing the AI that you'll be able to beat it easily whenever it comes up in a multi-player game, e.g. after someone gets booted or surrenders, depending on the game settings. Also, you'll know you've mastered the AI completely when you can get a gold star on the Insane single-player level.

Edited 10/20/2015 15:16:57
Something Different: 10/20/2015 15:43:52


Master Ryiro 
Level 62
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i don't think there's any difficulty level that you can achieve playing such games
after a certain point(depends on the size of map and settings),the chances of you winning are only proportional to the reciprocal of no. of AIs in the game
for eg:-if you play 0 neutrals game on big USA auto distribution,it totally depends on luck whether you win a game or not against 3+ no. of AIs
Something Different: 10/20/2015 17:24:04

wct
Level 56
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I guarantee I could win against any number of non-teamed AIs on such a map. No luck involved.
Something Different: 10/20/2015 17:29:53


Master Ryiro 
Level 62
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ok then....prove it in a 39 AI auto 1 start big usa initial 15 armies, 5 income, 0 neutrals medium fog 0 luck SR game
if you win 2 out of 3 games then you're right
(also send us link before you start playing so we know you've not cheated)

Edited 10/20/2015 17:35:12
Something Different: 10/20/2015 17:43:37


Krzysztof 
Level 66
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there is no link to single-player game, such games are stored only on your computer
also he states 'no luck involved' while '39 AI auto 1 start' depends much on luck, as every auto-dist game:P

Edited 10/20/2015 17:45:20
Something Different: 10/20/2015 17:50:10


Master Ryiro 
Level 62
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fine...........manual distribution on full distribuution then,it won't change your chances by much
Something Different: 10/20/2015 17:52:04


Cata Cauda
Level 58
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there is no link to single-player game, such games are stored only on your computer

Make it multiplayer but only invite AIs.
Something Different: 10/20/2015 17:55:57

wct
Level 56
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I can only play up to 36 player games at this level, so if that's good enough.... Also to share the link it needs to be multi-player, which requires at least two humans, so I've added you; you can surrender first turn or something. So it'll only be against 34 AIs.... By medium fog, I'm assuming you mean normal fog. Since you didn't mention, I turned off reinforce cards, although I think it would be almost as easy with default reinforcements.

Here's the first link: https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=9683128

I made it multi-day since I have an appointment later today, but when I get back I'll play it more-or-less real time. Not sure how long it will take. Usually it's the early turns that are the trickiest; after a certain point I'll be able to steam-roll to the end.
Something Different: 10/20/2015 17:59:30

wct
Level 56
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there is no link to single-player game, such games are stored only on your computer
also he states 'no luck involved' while '39 AI auto 1 start' depends much on luck, as every auto-dist game:P

Only the beginning depends on luck, and with a big map such as big usa, it's much less likely to get stuck in an impossible-to-win starting position. So yes, technically there is a small element of luck, but it is very small under these map circumstances.
Something Different: 10/20/2015 17:59:45


Cata Cauda
Level 58
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^
You dont need 2 humans for a multiplayer game...
Something Different: 10/20/2015 18:19:10


Buns157 
Level 68
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@Cata But to be able to save the game and keep it as evidence, it needs to be a multiplayer game.
Something Different: 10/20/2015 18:20:54

wct
Level 56
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Cata, when I tried to start the game with only me and AIs, it said I needed 2 humans. If you know another way, let me know.

BTW, the game is pretty much over now. I've got my first bonus, and it's just a matter of time before I clean up.
Something Different: 10/20/2015 18:36:48

wct
Level 56
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Second bonus. The steam roller is now building up steam. You can see the pattern from here on out. Basically just expanding and steam rolling at this point.
[Edit: Oops, forgot no one can see the play until the end. I'll forgo the commentary then.]

Edited 10/20/2015 18:59:43
Something Different: 10/20/2015 19:27:51


Cata Cauda
Level 58
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Upload screenshots!
Something Different: 10/20/2015 19:37:21

inquisitor
Level 56
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You dont need 2 humans for a multiplayer game...


You do need 2 humans. Unless I miss something, it will pop up an error message when you press the "create game" button.
Something Different: 10/20/2015 19:37:49

inquisitor
Level 56
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wct, I created a game for you with 39 AIs using your template (slightly modified). ;-)

How is it possible? I will surrender in the first turn (and I will turn into an AI).

Accept the challenge if you want.

https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=9690458

P.S. New link updated.

Edited 10/21/2015 20:11:11
Something Different: 10/20/2015 20:08:11

inquisitor
Level 56
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I want there to be an AI difficulty setting.


Nice idea, but I doubt it will happen. Skip the programming part. Try to write a complete step-by-step instruction to tell the AI how to play all its move during a game. It can't be vague. The instructions must be 100% clear and exact. It is going to a big project.

Fizzer made the single player version to teach new players how to play, and help them to familiar with the gameplay. It is where the AIs are mostly for. I don't think he will invest a lot of time to improve the AI.

Having said that, there is a Warlight AI coding competition.
http://theaigames.com/competitions/warlight-ai-challenge-2

There are some bots which can play decently. Maybe Fizzer could contact a few coders and see if it is possible to port some good bots to Warlight, but I doubt he would do.

If there is never anyone to play, then how do I practice and get better? Well, AI difficulty in Single Player.


Only if the AI improves a lot and can really compete with good players.

Currently AI is a noobie who makes tons of silly mistakes. You will learn very bad habits if you try to learn by playing with AI. It does not help you to get better at all.
Something Different: 10/20/2015 20:38:12

wct
Level 56
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Second link: https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=9684185

This time Riryo will start as a team mate so he can see my playing if he wants.

[Edit: slight screw-up. New link updated.]

Edited 10/20/2015 20:42:18
Something Different: 10/20/2015 20:54:13

wct
Level 56
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Inquisitor, I'll join yours after I finish Riryo's. I liked your idea of changing the humans to turn into AIs, so I tried to modify the second of Riryo's to do that, but then I realized he would become an AI ally, so I scrapped that idea and just kept him as a surrendering team mate, so he can watch if he wants.

Screenshot for game #1, turn 17. Soon to complete South Dakota:

Something Different: 10/21/2015 00:17:16

wct
Level 56
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Turn 28:




I've encountered a strong AI opponent (pink). Presumably this is what Riryo is thinking of, that it's a roll of the dice which player will get the best starting position with few enemies nearby and a headstart on expansion.

If that's the case, then this will be a good example of how to win despite an AI headstart, since I started in the middle of a clusterfuck of AI opponents and expansion was slow and tedious at first.

Indeed, the strong AI is threatening some of my bonuses, and this does indeed make the game slower and more tedious, but at this point it's really just a matter of time before I manage to crank up my income to be on an even level with the strongest AI. The AI simply is not smart enough to break my bonuses and keep them broken, whereas a human can easily do this to an AI, using the right techniques.
Something Different: 10/21/2015 06:15:17

wct
Level 56
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The second game started a bit easier. Here's turn 26:

Something Different: 10/21/2015 12:11:49


powerpos
Level 48
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[Wolf]Orthrus Echo Five said:
I'm not the best at WarLight, so I like to play more experienced players, to get practice and become better at the game.


Then don't play against AIs, they won't improve your skill after you learned the basics.
Secondly, get your bootrate under 15%, nobody wants to play against someone who is not even decent enough to surrender when they 've lost, so no surprise you're not seeing any games.
Thirdly, get your 1vs1 winrate up, auto-games should be good enough for this,
this will allow you to play games against better players.

TL;DR: You want skillz you need to put in effort.
Something Different: 10/22/2015 23:02:28

wct
Level 56
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Second game, turn 31:



I decided to end it here, since the rest is just tedious steamrollering to the map borders. Here's the game link again, so you can check for yourself that there's no real competition left (largest competitor has a small fraction of my income): https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=9684185

Edited 10/22/2015 23:25:05
Something Different: 10/22/2015 23:59:24


Dublin Warrior 
Level 49
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:O

Awesome job, wct. :)

But since I play a fair amount of single-player,
and we are unlikely to get a more difficult AI to play against,

I'm kinda glad that I can't pwn them as well as you do,
because then I'd be bored on single-player. :-/
Something Different: 10/23/2015 00:04:14

wct
Level 56
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Here's inquisitor's 39 AI challenge, turn 24:



This one will be easy, too, I'm already at 141 income and haven't hit any strong AIs yet. I will probably finish this one first before trying to finish the first of Riryo's games, which is the hardest of the three.
Something Different: 10/23/2015 00:14:22

wct
Level 56
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Dublin Warrior, as I said earlier on, the trick is to play against teams of AIs to increase the 'difficulty setting'. I'm only able to beat so many AIs because they are unteamed, and they all tend to fight amongst themselves. And AIs tend to be pretty bad at eliminating other AIs, so they have a hard time gaining and maintaining bonuses and super-bonuses with all these piddly little 5-income enemy AIs nibbling away at and within their borders.

When two teamed AIs gain a shared border, that's when they have a chance to put up a much stronger fight, as their effective border strength is essentially doubled. And that's not even mentioning the fact that the base income of the team is double the human player's income for teams of 2 AIs each.
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