Maybe make bigger, 8-clan division B in CL8, this will allow XS and ONE to fight it out.

Imo, ONE as a new clan have to start from the bottom.

Edited 2/1/2016 05:34:32

Mistakes were made.
No reason to repeat them. ONE! should take XS' spot.

Edited 2/1/2016 05:34:42

@Peixoto: gg

I really enjoyed my first season in clan league and thank the organizers for the effort in putting this together.

I think what happens to XS and what happens to ONE! are two different issues.

As far as what happens to ONE!, I think that we'll eventually get to where we belong in the rankings ONE! way or another :) But I am obviously biased here, and would prefer to not have to wait ~1 year until ONE! may compete in division B again. Because I really enjoyed the games this season and the opportunity to play with these skilled players.

As far as XS, I think it may be time to set a new precedent. If a clan leader gets booted from virtually every game they play in the clan league, and then manage to lose every other player that represents their clan in the clan league, then I think that clan should forfeit their place in the clan league and have to start from the bottom (should they choose to re-enter clan league). This would prevent the organizers from wasting so much of their effort organizing tournaments for a clan who's leader obviously does not take the tournament seriously (by being booted several times and losing their entire clan roster).

Edited 2/3/2016 01:57:31

of course we could always shoot two birds with one stone, and challenge XS for the spot in the league :) .. more work for the organizers though!

I'm not really too familiar with the workings of the clans so forgive me if I've misunderstood anything. I've seen a number of people cite precedent without seeming to have had a huge experience of how precedent works in practice.

Precedent exists as an aid for decision making, to help reach a fair result. It is common for similar situations, but which are not identical, to have what is precedent interpreted in different ways to ensure reaching that fair result.

If the precedent reinforces what they feel is the right decision then they cite that precedent, and as a result that precedent gains strength and validity. If they believe something else is the right result, then they either ignore it as the situation was different, or if they think that previous precedent is no longer correct then they rewrite precedent.

For me the organisers of the clan league should be asking themselves a number of questions in order to determine the outcome of the ONE and XS dispute.



1. Has the nature and quality of the clan XS changed to a sufficient extent that it can be considered for all intents and purposes that it is now a different entity? As examples, I don't know what XS used to stand for, was it always Xtra Spicey? Has the clan logo always been flames or did it change? Has the the clan description and recruitment changed? If so have the changes resulted in the nature and quality of the clan becoming something alien to what went before.

2. Have any of the members of the clan XS played in the clan league before. It is a good thing to introduce new players to the clan league, but is the design and purpose of the clan league intended to create an environment where beginners to competitive matches play one sided matches, or to encourage matching the players of similar standard together?

3. What is the motivation for XS to wish play in the clan leagues? It is my understanding and apologies if I misunderstood, that the clan XS split with the previous leader being booted in nearly all of his games, and then all the players left to create ONE. Given the apparent lack of interest shown by the leadership of XS in the clan league, is there a genuine desire, and are they genuinely capable of competing in the clan league, or is there perhaps an ulterior motive behind entering the league?



A few people have been citing precedent in a way which is a manifest distortion of the way in which precedent works (at least within the British legal framework). Context is hugely importantly, and you do not simply state something similar happened there is precedent, Q.E.D.

It is the job of the organisers to consider this context and apply their understanding of what the clan league is attempting to achieve and then make a decision which is both fair and protects the interests of the clan league. If the situation in the previous case has different facts, then it is not in the interests of anyone to make a decision based on facts which relate to a different situation.



To put in a more concise way, if you think XS are now a noob clan and are just trolling ONE to stop them playing in the clan league, from a legalistic front you should replace them with ONE and for precedent you cite that the changes to XS were sufficient that it is no longer the same clan.

If you think there was a dispute between the clans, that XS are trying to rebuild, are dedicated to strategic game-play and are working hard to be ready for the next clan league then let them stay, and follow the previous precedent.

Rules exist to help us achieve a fair result. Not to force us to make bad decisions.

Edited 1/20/2016 09:59:22

Rules exist to help us achieve a fair result. Not to force us to make bad decisions.

You can not be more wrong here! Rules are so that people don't judge so subjectively

Though the fact is that there are no official rules stated anywhere. For the next season such should be published and precisely followed.

Edited 1/20/2016 15:08:33

If you're talking about me, I'm not Holdway. Just ask a moderator.

I can confirm Holdway is not Peixoto. Besides, we know Peixoto wouldn't have put forth such an extensive well-reasoned argument :P

:| sorry then accept my apologize both of you. still rules are rules.

League B has finished all of its games now. Congratulations to Masters for dominating this group and to the Icelandic Turtles for gaining the second promotion spot to A for next season!

Division B					
Clan			1v1	2v2	3v3	Points	Win%
Masters			81	60	60	201	81.82%
Icelandic Turtles	72	56	50	178	72.73%
XS			69	48	20	137	59.09%
Warlighters		54	32	25	111	46.97%
REGL			36	36	20	92	37.88%
BIA			36	8	20	64	27.27%
BR			30	12	15	57	24.24%

Tournament Winners

Strat ME	MASTER	6	0	MotD
Battle Islands	MASTER	6	0	Master Atom
Greece		XS	5	1	Peixoto
Guiroma		MASTERS	6	0	MoD
Strat ME SR	Turtles	5	1	Buns157
Turkey		Turtles	6	0	Sultan
Strat ME SR	MASTER	5	1	MotD/Atom
Guiroma		MASTER	6	0	MoD/Pushover
Szeurope	Turtles	6	0	Buns/Nackickwind
EU SR		MASTER	6	0	Ryiro/MotD/Turtle
EU WR		MASTER	6	0	Atom/MoD/Pushover

This division was quite quickly divided into several strata. Masters ran out to a quick lead, while Turtles and XS were quite even in the fight for 2nd place. Warlighters and REGL for the most part seemed both safe from relegation and unlikely to be able to mount a serious challenge for promotion. BIA and BR were quickly outpaced by the other clans, having to make do with a fight for 6th place.

In the end Masters won comfortably winning 7 tournaments, 6 of which were undefeated. Turtles won 3 tournaments, and Peixoto secured XS's sole tournament win.

Turtles played very well and their tournament win total is indicative of how deserving they were of their promotion to A, but they were undoubted helped by some turmoil XS's ranks. After every other member of XS's clan league roster defected to ONE, it quickly became apparent that their chances of promotion were next to nil as RA proceeded to get booted in each remaining game - 11 in all representing 45 potential points. All told, 134 of XS's 137 points were recorded by players now in ONE.

Here are my subjective MVPs for each clan:
Masters:
This was between master of desaster (18-0), Master of the Dead (17-1), and Master Atom (17-1). However, MotD and Atom's loss in 2v2 ME cost them their perfect records, making MoD's perfect record stand out. Pushover (12-0) notably was also undefeated.

Turtles:
This was tight between Buns157 (20-4) and Sułtan Kosmitów (19-5), but Buns had a slightly better record over his 4 tournaments.

XS:
XS's MVP was clearly Peixoto (19-5), though Wick (9-3) also played very well.

Warlighters:
timon92 (15-9) is the clear MVP here, as Warlighters's only teams to post winning records contained him. He played significantly better than his record indicates, as his teammate in 2v2 ME was booted in 4 of their 5 losses.

REGL:
hedja (8-4) and Memele (8-4) finished with the same record, but I will give the highly coveted REGL MVP award to hedja, since one of Memele's wins was against the XS 3v3 WR team that was booted in each game. Their resumes are essentially equal though.

BIA:
tartan1314 (3-3), Gajda (3-3), and Botanator (4-8) each had 50% win rates in their 1v1 tournaments, which was the best in BIA.

BR:
JaponeSafado (5-7) had a 3-3 record in a very tough Guiroma tournament.

All told, 134 of XS's 137 points were recorded by players now in ONE

Enough said. Whoever considers XS to stay in B and ONE! To start at the bottom is a dick. What happened this season was very bad sportmanship from Ra and XS is definitely no clan league B clan by any meaning anymore.

Thanks for the conclusion beren.

This case is nearly identical to the Lynx/101st case. Lolowut and Chris said that since Lynx was a "new clan", we must start from the bottom. Even though 101st the previous season had been played 100% by new Lynx members. So the 134/137 points argument wasn't enough back then.

My thinking is that Lolowut and Chris made a huge mistake in the Lynx situation, and set the precedent there. However, let's be honest here. ONE deserves the right to be in Group B, not XS. I mean, technically, yes, rule-wise, XS gains the spot in B. However, I believe this is a case where the rules must be bent. ONE earned the spot in Group B, not XS. Mistakes were made in the past. I see this as a chance for Lolowut and Chris to make up for their decision to put Lynx at the bottom. Lynx knows how ONE feels, and can relate. Let's look at the aftermath of the Lynx decision. 101st gets beat up in Groups A and B, as expected. Lynx dominates in Groups C and B, as expected. It was a waste of both of our times. Lynx had a better team the two previous seasons, and could have competed much better in Group A. 101st would have been better off playing clans of their own skill level.

So here's my proposal for an amendment to the earlier rule. The earlier rule basically said that if the old clans plays the next season, the "new" clan must start from the bottom. That rule was implied in the Lynx/101st decision. I propose to change this rule so that if a new clan had scored 75% or more of the points for the old clan in the previous season, the new clan gets the old clan's spot, while the old clan starts from the bottom. This is the fairest way to do it.

Thanks for the summary Beren. For once, I agree with your subjective opinion :P

I completely agree with MoD and JSA here. In my opinion, XS had a great shot at promotion to Group A until those boots. ONE! should get the spot in group B.

I hope the organizers completely disregard what people are saying and demote One anyway. Then Fizzer's management style could pervade all of WL.

If you want One in B, make a Uservoice...

Edited 2/1/2016 07:43:30