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piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 10:02:56


Pink 
Level 60
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1st and 2nd just fought.

https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=9301247

the game was decided on picks but so far piggy defeated summer 3 times while summer only defeated piggy 2

thoughts?
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 11:08:25


Verzehrer 
Level 60
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Yes, that was totally down to picks, and very interestingly so.

Deadpiggy first. He picked rather risky for my taste, not covering russia at all and very counterbased. 1/2 are fine, 3 Indonesia already with the assumption of Antarctica being taken, but in this case working well (except for Taiwan, which would make a lot of problems in the long run).

Then I wondered what the fuzz with West Africa was all about. As a 4th pick, well, ok, safe income in case Australia gets lost on 1st for example or Indonesia on 3rd gets lost (though both scenarios don't look that likely). But 5 Algeria?? Was a pick on West Africa really that likely to counter it? Sure, the map lacked safe spots to expand (especially in 2 turns), but West Africa wouldn't have been necessarily my favorite spot here, especially long term. I'd like Southeast Asia + Indonesia more (with a quick foray into Hongkong to check of course) or East China with a slow starting game. So 5 Algeria was a strong assumption on West Africa there. 6 West Russia just a solid last pick with coverage.

Clearly a full counterpicking strategy deadpiggy drove there; I guess he must have had a clear idea what Summer was going to do, otherwise those picks would have failed really badly against a lot of opponents. Just imagine someone doing 1 Indonesia, 2 Pakistan, 3 maybe Greenland. That would've been that.

Well, then looking at Summer's pick deadpiggy's gameplan worked totally out. I already don't like 1 Siple as it is clearly in a bad position against Tasmania. A solid strategy would include the opponent getting 1 Tasmania, then going quickly into Scott and blocking it up solidly. That would kill the pick very early. So when wanting to pick in the Antarctica area, for me Tasmania 1 is a must as you get to Antarctica with killing just 1 neutral, while the opponent needs 2 to border Australia.

Anyhow, I would have liked to see Australia in 2nd at least, but I see the danger in doing that with a bold South Africa counter on 5. (Btw. piggy even underwent the risk of being counterpicked there). West Africa 2 is solid then, but not more than that. Very risk-avoiding in my opinion and in combination with Siple just not that effective as it is a quick 2-turn-bonus that neglects Antarctica early on and prevents counterplay against a (very probable) Australia pick, thus making Siple obsolete in most scenarios. As with 1 Siple and no Australia pick I would expect Siple to be played very aggressively early on and not as a long-term expansion thing after West Africa. 3 Central Russia is okay, but also based on the assumption of a) no counterplay in Ufa or b) early picks of deadpiggy in Russia (because of 4 Pakistan), which frankly seems unlikely. So well, not that convincing too, but okay if Russia is left untouched by deadpiggy (which it did, but the other picks were killed, so no advantage with this). 5 and 6 are alright then, but the other picks seemed rather safe ones to get, so not very relevant.

So yeah, win on picks by deadpiggy, who guessed out Summer effectively, whose picks weren't that good this time around, one of the rare occasions actually. But that happens from time to time even to the best, especially as you can't analyze all the picks on a map in every game you play - I know this from my own experience as I like to blow up a game by picks every now and then effectively. But as I said, something that happens to Summer rarely (and she doesn't get counterpicked that effectively as here by deadpiggy very often, so that is that aswell) and so no miracle that she is solidly at #1.
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 11:27:40


Verzehrer 
Level 60
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Of course it has no use for someone with a best rating of 1544 - unless you want to get to a ranking better than 100 or even 150 ever. Picking good is what makes you a better player, easy as that (and not only on this template) - and for that it can be very helpful to analyze picks.

Actually a shame that this has become such a seldom thing on the forums, I liked the picking analyzes of deadpiggy or JSA or Qi etc. - they really help you to become a better player.
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 11:55:21


Pink 
Level 60
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panda is 2 used to the clan drama and canno recognize value in anythign else anymore
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 12:05:05

TeddyFSB 
Level 60
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I think this is a kind of map that picks itself, and where mixing things up is suboptimal.

There is only one 3 on the map, Antarctica, we want it but it's worthless without Tasmania.
So Tasmania is obvious #1, and Siple obvious #3.
Indonesia is bad, can't risk opponent getting Tasmania, and us getting Siple and Indonesia.
Ufa is better than Chad or Jessej for #2
Jessej is obvious #4
Chad is obvious #5
and Algeria is obvious #6.
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 12:52:54

JSA 
Level 59
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Piggy's picks are interesting, but I must agree with some others about Indonesia being a relatively poor pick this game. Most good players would pick Australia #1 I think, so there is a 50/50 shot of you losing Australia. And with Piggy's picks, if you lose Australia, you are in deep trouble, and almost certain to lose.

Versus 90% of players, I would pick exactly like Teddy did. His picks are the best this board has to offer.

However, with Strategic 1v1, there is usually no dominant picks. Even Teddy's picks have a major weakness (South Africa). If you think the opponent won't counterpick, go with Teddy's picks. If you think the opponent will pick South Africa as a counter, go with some other picks. This is why I think Strategic 1v1 sometimes turns into Rock, Paper, Scissors rather than being decided on true skill. Strategic 1v1 has been "mastered" compared to most other templates on warlight due to the high amount of games played on it and the fact that it is less complex than some other templates. This means that oftentimes, when two players that understand the template well meet, it turns into a Rock, Paper, Scissors match, and either player can easily grab the win.


https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=8122979
This is one of the most entertaining Strategic 1v1 games I've seen for a while. It's basically a prediction-fest between Miyagi and Summer.
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 13:16:03


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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I don't understand Panda. I find these things useful for sure. I wish we had a strategy forum where we could just analyze games.
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 13:23:16


Rogue Nikolai Krogius
Level 58
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People wonder/whine about why they suck at warlight compared to people like piggy or summer and then they come on the forums and bash people who are actually trying to get better. Shame on you panda. If you don't like lvl combat then don't click on threads about "random" (cringe) people in lvl combat. I totally agree that we need a strategy board.

Edited 8/21/2015 17:41:50
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 13:33:52


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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I think you mean shame on Panda. I agree. I would encourage people to come on here and ask why they can't get better. You can tell people to watch ladder games of top people, but you also need to know what to look for. I can often tell looking at a few games from someone that they have an issue with something in particular mostly. Like pick location, pick order, managing leftovers, etc.
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 14:22:28

Good Kid 
Level 56
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I'm confused. What's all this panda talk? Guessing someone responded and had their posts deleted?
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 14:54:35


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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odd, his posts are gone. He basically said this was a pointless thread and posted an image. Odd as I never see posts deleted (when I admin on another site I would put "post deleted" in there so people knew).

Edited 8/19/2015 14:54:48
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 14:57:47

Purple Illusions 
Level 51
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Hmm, most interesting thing about this thread to me might actually be reading the game's chat after this thread. Neither Piggy or Summer seem overly in agreement that the picks Teddy/JSA suggested are great.

Not saying they can't be wrong from time to time, but in general I'd consider Piggy and Summer to be better than JSA or Teddy at strat 1v1.
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 15:23:55


Verzehrer 
Level 60
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I'd maybe do 1 SEA, 2 Indonesia, 3 Australia, 4 Antarctica, 5 West Africa/Greenland, 6 North Africa/West Africa. Maybe 5th South Africa instead, but with 1 SEA and 2 Indonesia not that necessary. The danger here would be East China (as JSA pointed out, there is danger in every picking strategy, it is about minimizing it - either by rendering it improbable or by picking really safe), but that could be checked early on. The opponent getting SEA 1st another one.
Africa could be neglected with SEA and Indo; SEA would also work alone as it keeps whole Russia in check (mostly). I still think back to dead piggy's praise of SEA in that regard.

But well, it's always easy to say afterwards what you would pick - to be in the situation itself with the game before you is another deal.
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 17:14:43

(retired)
Level 58
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Warning
You've reached this page because you have violated some of WarLight's rules. The reason for this warning follows:

Please do not put players down for posting in the forum. If there's something you're not interested in, you can simply avoid posting.




??? Is that linked with my previous post here??
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 17:57:46


Genghis 
Level 54
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As Mongol Khagan, I'll apologize if panda upset anybody. I don't know what he said, but it is certainly not a view mongols clan haves (there are actual pointless threads on Forum, this is perfectly legitimate).
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 18:39:27


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Guess I will have to watch myself. I've commented on a few topics at times asking why we are posting it (stuff that is spam/trolling to me). I did not know that was against the rules.

But I suppose I questioned the topic, not putting the person down.

Edited 8/19/2015 18:40:18
piggy vs summer: 8/19/2015 19:58:53

JSA 
Level 59
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Not saying they can't be wrong from time to time, but in general I'd consider Piggy and Summer to be better than JSA or Teddy at strat 1v1.

Interesting comment, and it may be true. Piggy has dominated me in 1v1's, yet I have beat Summer in more 1v1's than she has beat me in. Teddy has taken #1 in 2 different periods on the 1v1 ladder. I have only taken #1 in one period. Summer has taken #1 in 2 different periods. Piggy has taken #1 in 4 different periods. Piggy and Summer have also played the ladder much more than Teddy and myself, and both Piggy and Summer have taken #1 with more games than me and Teddy. Based on the ladder on Strategic 1v1: Piggy > Teddy > Summer > JSA. Based on personal experience and watching games, I would rate Piggy as number one, and number two could be any of us other three. In this instance, Piggy/Summer are correct in saying Antarctica/Australia are not necessarily the best picks on the board. I missed seeing Southeast Asia combo in my earlier statement (I assume Teddy did as well). There are no "best picks" on this board without knowing where your opponent is.

Piggy's comment on picking Antarctica first over Australia is interesting and not something I agree with. I assume his picking is small bonuses > large bonuses, while my picking Australia would be focused on position in the bonuses. I understand his stance, yet I disagree with it. I think this is one of those details on Strategic 1v1 that many top players disagree on. I can guarantee some top players would agree with me, and I am confident others would prefer Piggy's order. Do we have any way to test this? It might be interesting to see which is actually better.

Now back to which picks should be picked. I see a major weakness in every type of pick. Southeast Asia/Indonesia is strong, yet if the opponent ends up in East China, they are in deep trouble. Summer is correct in saying that Southeast Asia/Indonesia + Africa > Austrlia/Antarctica + Russia. Piggy's are really weak if he loses first pick. Summer's get beat by some combos. I made a mistake earlier in what I said. I said Australia/Antarctica were the best picks the board has to offer. The truth is, in this game, there are no best picks the board has to offer. It's all about how your opponent picks compared to you. That is why I don't like Strategic 1v1 at a high level, and why you don't see top players dominate versus elite players at Strategic 1v1 like you do in some other templates. It also allows mediocre players to upset top players.
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