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100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 04:30:20


eliod 
Level 57
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My last map was refused.
https://www.warlight.net/SinglePlayer?PreviewMap=41413

Fizzer answered my request for the concrete reason:
The requirement is simple: Say you showed a picture of your map to a WarLight player who has never seen it before, pointed at each territory, and asked them, "What territories does this connect to?". If they can answer the question to within 95% accuracy for every territory, then it passes.
If they can't, you should change it so that the connections are obvious just by looking at the map.


Please help me to find the reason! I played WarLight for a while and maybe I lost the sight of a novice.

· Should I connect the Circles in the Hexagons (Arena) visibly?

· The Gates in the Arena and in the Catacombs are one divided territory. Should I connect them visibly?

· The Stands are no fighting-arena. They are part of the bonus-territories in the arena. The Idea is that the spectators become fans of a player, symbolized by becoming his color. - I know, this is a new feature that didn't use in any Map before. But in Testgames the players understood the concept without explaining.

· Or is it the connection between the gates and the first two hexagons in the arena?
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 04:36:42


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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Some circles pretty randomly connect to the stadium.
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 04:39:03


Жұқтыру
Level 55
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Also, you only need 20 testplayers.
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 04:51:44


eliod 
Level 57
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Ah, ok...
The stadium is no fighting-area. The territories in the stadium are connected to the bonus-territories.

Naaa... this is in fact difficult to understand, if you only see a picture of the map. It's very understandable by playing. (There is no Centerpoint in the Stadium ranks. So, no attacking-arrow will lead into the Stadium ranks. No Army-counter will appear in the Stadium ranks.)

:-D - You are right 20 testplayers lvl 1! hahaha... And they needn't play. It's enough showing them a picture.

Edited 3/17/2015 05:00:49
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 05:07:29


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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I agree with him. Visually it is great, but if you just look and dont click you have no idea what connects. The hexagons should be the territories not the circles, and show connections to stands too. They can be artistic, but need to be shown
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 05:16:13


Arminius
Level 56
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Another tester friend of mine on this map suggested that each of the bonus territories as in the hexagon and stand which are supposed to be the same territory would have the same coloured outline,
Would this show the stands and arena are connected as the same territory chris?

The only problem with this map is if people choose to play it without the correct distribution, but I suppose its up to them how they play it, the map makers just have to show its playable not the way to play it.
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 05:20:09


eliod 
Level 57
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This is a testgame: https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=8219087

I think this new feature is without playing hard to understand.

Edited 3/17/2015 05:28:23
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 06:27:28


Arminius
Level 56
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It would be a travesty if this map wasn't fixable as the time and effort with both detail and imagination gone into it would be lost...

I demand a judicial review! *internet gods please*
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 06:55:50


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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it sounds like you created a map for a scenario, and decided to simply use warlight as the medium in which to use it.
skimming through the test game real quick after having looked at the original link.. I was shocked to discover the artistry on the left were also territories..
I suspect Fizzer fears that this maps "only" purpose would be for this custom scenario, and would be unviable in any form for any other type of gaming.



""· The Stands are no fighting-arena. They are part of the bonus-territories in the arena. The Idea is that the spectators become fans of a player, symbolized by becoming his color. - I know, this is a new feature that didn't use in any Map before. But in Testgames the players understood the concept without explaining.""

I don't understand *no fighting-arena* If it's not meant to be used for fighting, why not make the spectators of those fighters just the same territory as the fighter... then the crowds would change as the fight goes, without actually forcing you to attack the fans in order to change the fans to your color..
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 07:28:07

DanWL 
Level 62
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the circles inside the stadium randomly connect to the seats of it. Get rid of those connections or add lines to show that they are connected.
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 07:46:49


Arminius
Level 56
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@Perrin,

"I don't understand *no fighting-arena* If it's not meant to be used for fighting, why not make the spectators of those fighters just the same territory as the fighter... then the crowds would change as the fight goes, without actually forcing you to attack the fans in order to change the fans to your color.."

Thats exactly what they do... you are mistaken, when someone takes the territory in the arena which is part of the bonus in the stands it changes to their colour, so as you say the crowd changes as the fight goes on, you are mistaken.

I agree however that Fizzer may think what you suggest that its only suitable for one type of gaming, but lets be honest their are lots of maps like that already used so this is not different. Not to mention you could still probably have different types on it based on the settings, self rules and other things.

@DanWL

The circles in the stadium are not random, each one which is connected to a bonus corresponds to a part of the stand, you attain a whole section of a stand you get a bonus, you attain a whole inner circle of a stand and you get another bonus.

I agree their may need some sort of symbol of connection between these two, that's why quoted a suggestion the outline colours be the same to correlate circle to stand.
_______________________________________________________________

Overall theirs a need to perhaps clarify the area's which fighting for territory takes place and where they connect, but not much else is wrong with it awkwardly, you cannot say the side catacombs have to be physically or directionally shown as this map does the same and was passed, https://www.warlight.net/Play?PreviewMap=33722

However on the above linked map, I did spot a key code as it were showing how the city is linked to the city map, maybe this is what is needed between the catacombs and arena??

Overall Fizzer has still been very oblique about how to solve the 'problem' he says their is on this map.

Edited 3/17/2015 07:50:43
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 13:45:52


Bane 
Level 60
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Overall Fizzer has still been very oblique about how to solve the 'problem' he says their is on this map.

this was true for me in the past. email him and ask him directly, but be nice.
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 13:52:53


eliod 
Level 57
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Thanks Arminius!

-----
If you click this link: https://www.warlight.net/SinglePlayer?PreviewMap=41413 (same like above) please don't use your professionally view, but mind the simple information you'll get.

Click on a circle-Territory within a Bonus (marked with a darker hexagon-background). You will notice that the circle-Territory becomes blue (because you selected it) and the circle-Territories around becomes yellow (because they are connect to your selected Territory). Now don't click anywhere else and take a look to the Stadium ranks. One rank became blue, too (because your selected circle-Territory is combined with this territory!) And some ranks became yellow. In fact, they are not connect to the blue rank, because they are combined with the Bonus-Circle-Territories which border to your selected circle-Territory.

Take the famous Medium-Earth-Map: Ireland is part of the territory "United Kingdom". Say you showed a picture of "Medium Earth" to a WarLight player who has never seen it before, pointed at Ireland, and asked them, "What territories does this connect to?". Maybe some will answer: "This territory connect to "United Kingdom" because there are no visible connections between Ireland and France, Germany or Iceland. But if this guy play the Map, he will recognize immediately that Ireland and United Kingdom is one and the same Territory. Because they become the same color and only one Territory contains the Center Point which shows the Number of Troops. And only from this point possible Attacks are shown with that red and blue arrows (like on my Map).

And I bet, 95% Warlight player will recognize the concept of my map at the latest after turn 3.

If they don't? So what! They rate the map 1/5. And soon the Map will disappear on the Map-cemetery beneath the 3.0 Rating where only Lottery survives.

I will add some more explanations on the Map. And I hope this new and not usually (but playable) Idea will get a chance. It's no problem, if you hate the Idea, but mind that the 100th Map of Europe will become boring, too.

-----
Edit:

Hey, Bane! This is my mail that Fizzer answered with my posting above:

Hallo Fizzer!

I receive following message answering my last try publishing the Map https://www.warlight.net/SinglePlayer?PreviewMap=41413:
All territory connections must be visible on the map. In other words, it must be possible for a reasonable person to determine what territories exist and what they connect to just by looking at the map.
Please allow me to ask for a concrete requirement.

· Should I connect the Circles in the Hexagons (Arena) visibly?
· The Gates in the Arena and in the Catacombs are one divided territory. Should I connect them visibly?
· The Stands are no fighting-arena. They are part of the bonus-territories in the arena. The Idea is that the spectators become fans of a player, symbolized by becoming his color. - I know, this is a new feature that didn't use in any Map before. But in Testgames the players understood the concept without explaining.
· Or is it the connection between the gates and the first two hexagons in the arena?

Please excuse my misunderstand.

greetings
eliod

Edited 3/17/2015 14:27:34
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 14:39:59


Arminius
Level 56
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@Eliod,

The darker shades have improved it to show difference but its still so close to the other colour you can barely see its different.

The Yellow and blue does help a lot showing which is part of the territory and what it is connected to.

However what my point was that in this map, https://www.warlight.net/Play?PreviewMap=33722, in the top left corner you have a guide to how the territory's for cities are connected, in this map the gate both in arena and catacomb are one territory this makes it much easier to play but maybe less easy to understand?

I say wait until Fizzer reply's to you.
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 14:44:39


Bane 
Level 60
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good luck
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 15:06:29


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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ahh, I see.
I misunderstood when I was looking at it, ahah.
yeah, the problem must be in Fizzers mind the entrance to the pit.. however that is fairly intuitive if you just spend a moment examining it.

and that kind of cancels out the custom scenario.. I was thinking because it had special rules to follow for those territories, but it would be natural ... It's really no different than a map with 4 strong starting spots that go out into a mass area to combat.
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 15:08:14


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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maybe invite him to a test game so he can see how natural it flows?
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 15:15:10


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Getting it after turn 3 is no good. People need to understand what connects without playing a game on it.
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 15:37:49


Arminius
Level 56
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@Chris, now we are just discussing the basic level of intelligence someone needs to comprehend a clear connection, I'm sure you as I have played plenty of games with people not seeing how something connects to another thing but you saw it easily at the start.

Edited 3/17/2015 15:38:28
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 15:48:41


skunk940 
Level 58
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Fizzer has a point here.
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 15:55:18


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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No, the connections are very messed up in addition to not being clear. For example, click Tribunes III. It connects to II and I but not IV. That makes no sense. Same with Equites III. If you don't want III and IV connected, make a wall there. Censors II and III connect but not I and II.

I get that there is a certain way the maker wants this to flow, but I would quit turn 1 because I'd have to spend forever clicking all over to comprehend the map. Look at the things I posted, they are not even consistent, so learning the 'pattern' is pointless. Maybe if you had a symbol at each end of the connections, then you could tell where they went.

Lower plebeians is equally confusing. And why are Lower Plebeians above Plebeians on there? That makes no sense to me either (why is it not called Upper?). If it is based on class structure, call it "Lesser" and not "Lower". I just think it has so much potential based on the looks, but the connections are a mess.

Edited 3/17/2015 15:58:32
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 16:02:57


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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BTW, I think the gates are fairly easy to understand (although again a symbol on the gate for each gladiator would help a lot). The issues I see are all within the arena itself.
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 16:55:40


eliod 
Level 57
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THANK YOU (!!!) Perrin3088 for your second view and for your understanding! And thank you for your additional and correct explaining! Your Tips are worthy and I will try to transpose them. And thank you as well for protecting me from a heart attack! :)

Hey ChrisCMU! You designed Maps, too. And surely you know the meaning of setting the center point. - There is no center point in the ranks. It's just a visual effect. And - to be true - it has no use but maybe creating a bit fun. You can play and win a match without spending a single look into the ranks. Yes, it's not necessary for gaming. But it's also not necessary to create a game board looking like the earth. It's enough to make squares. But it feels better to conquer the world, than to conquer squares.
The point "lower plebeians" is yours. It based in fact on class structure. I will follow your argument and change that point. Thank you!
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 18:52:52


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Not sure where you are coming from at all on the world vs squares. I never said anything bad about the concept (I complimented the way it looks many times). I'm just saying connections need to be obvious (depicted or implied) and yours are not. Since your connections go across other territories, I would not recommend throwing lines on there. I would instead put a symbol that depicts the connections. For example, why not take your gladiator polygons (like Murmillo for example), shrink that down and combine/union to a single polygon. Then place that small 'symbol' on the wall in the arena (next to the gate) and also on the left hand side where the gate enters the area under the stands. Then you are giving a clue where that goes without drawing connecting lines. You can do this for all non-obvious connections.

If you don't, you'll never get this past testing.
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 19:34:00


Incaman
Level 56
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You should listen to Fizzers' advice ;)
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 20:02:07

Hennns
Level 58
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First, this map looks amazing

I don't think the Arena itself is a problem, the issue (imo) is the gates. One possibility is to some description explaining it (either pictures or text), another is arrows (or smt similar) but that'd look ugly. I'm sure there's a elegant solution.

PS.
You're not the first to use this "coloring in players color" trick, other maps already have it. For example https://www.warlight.net/Play?PreviewMap=11033 the territories color the words. However I've not seen one done as well as yours.
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 3/17/2015 20:03:52


Timinator • apex 
Level 64
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lovely idea with the cheering crowd as a visual effect :)

guess it works for 4ffa, 2v2 or 1v1


i don't see where the problem in understanding the connections is :/
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 4/1/2015 07:34:37


[NL] Willem van Oranje
Level 57
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Sometimes you'll need other players to see the problem why you're map is rejected.
I agree that you cannot see which territories connect to eachother (VERY confusing map)
I had the same problem with my map Narnia: https://www.warlight.net/Map/15724-Narnian-World
The Entrance to the Underlands was not clear. I made 2 blue lines and some text to make the connection more clear. The star and the sphere are 1 territory in this case.

Remove the connections, make only logical connections and then try again. You've made a pretty artistic work.
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 4/6/2015 12:36:44


҈ TeeMee123 ҈
Level 49
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Personally I think that map is pretty confusing, it's just a shame it gets completely rejected because of that. I felt the same way with zxctycxz's first map which is almost the biggest world map on warlight, but won't be excepted because the territories are a bit too small.

Edited 4/6/2015 16:19:08
100 Testplayers lvl 1 wanted: 4/8/2015 12:04:52


eliod 
Level 57
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Some users of this Thread understood the principle of the Map, some not. The discussion proves me that I am not able to explain it to the necessary 95%. (If you really interested to understand the simplicity behind the first confusing sight, ask for a test game.)

The concept of "coloring in players color" (thanks Hennns for showing that the idea is not as new as I thought!) is the basic idea of the Map. The insight that I have to mutilate the idea for getting public is like stomach pain.

The project is an cooperative work with Vitrix Mortalis. That's the only reason for me to make the necessary cuts to make the Map public.
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