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[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 14:35:20

JSA 
Level 59
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The [20] A League tournaments have been made:

Strategic 1v1: http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TournamentID=5703
Szeuropa 2v2: http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TournamentID=5704
Europe 3v3: http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TournamentID=5705

It is asked that players play with different teammates in the 2v2 and 3v3. You will have points deducted if you break that rule.

Why each person is in [20A]:

Jupiter: Very good player, especially at team games
Mannerheim: Very good player, especially at team games
Anonymous: Very good player, especially at 1v1's
Falker: Great player on team games and 1v1
Featherbucket: Very good player at 1v1's, plays better against high level players than lower level players
Sir Fridge: Amazing team player
Brisk: Great all-around player
Dreuj: Great all-around player
Frankdeslimste: Very good team player, also very good at 1v1's
Grona: Great 1v1 player
Kage: Warlight Legend
Myhandisonfire: Warlight Legend
Qi: Warlight Legend
Teddy: Great at 1v1
Tigger: Great at 1v1
Timinator: Great all-around player
Unknownsoldier: Been #1 on 1v1 ladder and 2v2 ladder with two different teammates, tough to beat that
Beelzebub: Same as with unknownsoldier
Zibik: Great at 1v1
JSA: [20B] winner last season
Gnuffone: Great all-around player
dunga: Had the #1 spot on 2v2 ladder with a couple different teammates and is also a very good 1v1 player
Heyheuhei: Warlight Legend

If you feel you deserved an invite to [20A] but weren't invited, please invite me to a game and let me know. There are 3-4 guys I was very close to inviting to A but I had to narrow it down so that we do not get more than 20 in A League. If players decline, I have a small list made out for the next players to get in. Expect the B League tournament to be made within the next week :)
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 14:55:02


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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I see kage has been invited and got to level 10. Sze is back sooner than I expected. wb.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 14:55:36

Jehovah 
Level 58
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jesus, its jsa and his analysis again.

sigh.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 15:23:29


Mudderducker 
Level 57
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When will Proving grounds start?
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 16:26:08

Qi 
Level 55
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maybe i shoukd change my name to The Legend. haha
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 16:49:53

JSA 
Level 59
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Alex, It should be relatively soon. [20A] is the main thing, once i get that done, I should be able to make the [20b and 20C] tournaments at the same and possibly Proving Ground too.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 17:42:34


Mostly Harmless 
Level 55
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So wait, there's 2 [20] tournaments going on at the same time now?
Consider me confused.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 17:47:16

JSA 
Level 59
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There is 2 kinds of [20] this season, one is more open and will be elimination tournaments. This one is round robins and will only be 20 or less players that are about your skill level.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 17:56:14


Timinator • apex 
Level 64
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Why 2v2 and 3v3 on the same map?

Dislike :(
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 18:44:39

JSA 
Level 59
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There is a big difference between Szeuropa and regular Europe imo. I like Szeuropa, dislike 3v3 europe and regular 2v2 europe. Next season i will ask for a vote on the maps used for each.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 20:29:53


MilitaryManiac 
Level 57
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Hard to argue with your list but I think lobstrosity should have made the cut.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 21:09:39


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Shouldn't you have more than 20? Otherwise you are not settling who is in [20] with play, but by your judgement. Seems like you'd want more like 30 players, that way people have a chance to prove they belong.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 21:10:15


[WM] แต€แดดแดฑ๐“•๐“ป๐“ฒ๐“ญ๐“ฐ๐“ฎ 
Level 59
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Thx for inviting me :)

btw Gnuffone will be so angry for not being mentioned as a legend... ;)))
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 21:19:37


hedja 
Level 58
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chris if I counted correctly there are 23 players invited, but I understand your point of view.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 21:22:32

JSA 
Level 59
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Chris, I want to be able to do just one tournament for each setting meaning only 20 players or less play. It will probably end up that the top 30 are invited. It was also not just my judgement, I had a couple people help me narrow it down.

I think Gnuffone hasn't been a top player long enough to be a technical legend. Give him a couple more months and then I think I'll consider him one :)

Military, Lobstrosity was actually the last guy I took off the list for [20A]. I took him off because his play lately has not been great and he has not done incredibly well in the 2v2 ladder. There's a lot of guys who are very good that could have easily been in A but when we narrow it down, I had to pick someone else over them. I guarentee the winner of B League this season will be placed in A League next season. I also am planning on inviting 2-3 more guys to A League in the next couple days, and Lobs is one of those guys.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/9/2013 21:37:13


Master Miyagi • apex 
Level 59
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can the lower leagues have 1v1 other then middle earth? and i would say Tigger is a legend. All Hail Tigger! The Master bows to only Tigger!
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 00:45:32

Qi 
Level 55
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some thoughts...

the checklist i developed for picking templates for 20 seasons i made:

1. never use the same map twice in the same season
2. never use the same map from a past season in the same game mode this season (ie, if i made a 2v2 on europe in a past season but never made a 3v3 on europe, i could still make a 3v3 on eu but i would not make a 2v2)
3. dont use strat 1v1 at all. the ladders exist for that. other tournaments use it. it is overplayed.
4. from the dozens of template options remaining: (a) put a list of good, interesting templates together that people want to play or would enjoy and (b) ask the players to vote on what they want. who am i to force people to play what i pick without giving them a choice, especially if i am taking part and others might think i would have an advantage bc i picked something i am better at or more comfortable with. fizzer already picks templates for seasonal ladders by fiat. look at the heat he gets for not giving 100+ players a choice. and the LIVE tournaments tend to function the same way. one thing 20 originally stood for was fun and competition on a variety of new (not old) maps and settings, based on (a) non-1v1 me templates people like (eg turkey 1v1) and (b) new templates made on top rated maps.

this RR 20 season feels like a LIVE tournament turned multiday and is even using the vocabulary (legends) in addition to the same overused templates chosen by fiat.

the reason i made the series of 20 single-elimination tournaments: RRs were successful only in season 1 of 20. the other season(s) were successful in B (and C?) leagues. but the A league players had little patience or interest in playing so many intense games for months. why have a league that ranks players if half of A league wont even play despite being active in other games? A league players cant be replaced very easily, especially for team games.

based on input and what happened with A league (lack of success of RRs, transformation into championship league), i thought 20 should evolve: more fun, less commitment/fewer games (single elimination), more openness (120 players were invited by me, people play with and against a variety of players), ranks/points based on less a less stringent system (only 15 of 20 tournaments count), winning is more about fun than a cut-throat fight to see who is the best of the best.

sze took the A league competition and trqnsformed it into a more entertaining system (champions leavue). why not consider that A league? the format made participation as high as 20's A league in the first season. the old RR format wont work for A league. it will work for B and C though, given the number of people at those levels of play. if 10+ decline B league still works. if 10+ decline A league it wont. i had to delete tournaments for A league last time i made them. why call it 20 (ie trying to find the 20 best) if tournaments for the 20 best are made but not played?
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 01:15:04

JSA 
Level 59
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I liked the Champion's League but it seemed to have a lot of people quitting after the first round.

I personally don't like the single eliminations as much as a round robin. There's a very good chance players have to play 60+ games in the elimination tournaments to win first place. I also think some people will join the first couple and not join later.

And so far 2-3 guys have declined each tournaments, 8-10 have joined. I am sure a few more at least will join. If I invite a couple more who are also at that level, then we have at least 15 A Leaguers I think.

I'll make a chat game to talk to the people in [20A] about it to see their thougts though.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 01:25:35


[WM] Anonymous 
Level 52
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Desert fox almost won the previous 20 leagues...why you didn't get him in?
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 01:36:49

JSA 
Level 59
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Didn't realize he was still active :)

I invited him to the chat game now, as well as darkwing, and lobstrosity will get an invite when he gets back from vacation.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 02:43:24

Qi 
Level 55
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the most important question: purpose.

if you want to get the most accurate rank of as many of the best 25 to 30 players based on three game modes (1v1 2v2 3v3), can it be done if

1. maybe one-third to half dont join any tournaments
2. most will only join 1-2 tournaments
3. only 3 to 8 players will join all tournaments
4. people already have intense clan challenges, champion's league and other RR tournaments going on
5. so many B league replacements are needed that A league becomes AB league in reality and unbalanced teams end up matching up teams of A leaguers vs teams of B leaguers

my series of 20 tournaments: it is just fun compeition trying to get as many good players to play on what i find to be interesting templates. the points add a little extra to the fun, but are not the main focus for everyone.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 02:55:05

JSA 
Level 59
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I completely disagree with a lot of your points.

1. I estimate roughly three quarters will join at least one tournament.
2. 8 have already joined all 3.
3. 8 players have already joined all tounaments. I assume 4-5 more players will too.
4. Champion's League is pretty mujch done atm I believe, and there are very few intense clan challenges.
5. We can do it with only 15 players in 3v3, and about 14 in 1v1 and 2v2, I am not necssarily going to fill it up if A leaguers decline.

I have no doubt your tournaments will be fun and I plan to join most of them. However, some people will get tired of them after about 5. How many A league quality plaeyrs do you fully expect to participate in over 15 of them? I estimate less than the amount that joins the round robins. I will play in both and if in our chat game, we decide to do the champions league style too, I am most definitely in. I feel like it's best to give players a couple options while trying not to make good plaeyrs pick between two.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 03:37:45


Master Miyagi • apex 
Level 59
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I believe Qi's prediction of the less people will be true for a lot of people, once school starts a lot of people will become very busy and not want long and tough round robins to add onto other games
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 03:45:48

JSA 
Level 59
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Ah, but what about the elimination tournaments? If people are busy with school, why would they even join the eliminations? That is something that might keep me from joining all of them. 3 games at a time is not a terrible amount, but with the elimination tournaments, you could easily have much more going on.

And the question isn't which one is best so much as should we do more than 1?
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 05:18:23

Qi 
Level 55
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20 tournaments. 120 people invited to each. it doesnt matter if people dont join. the joy of playing is more important than proving yohrself to your peers. this is the difference. change your mindset and you will see this as the difference. you want tournaments that prove something. no matter how i might hype mine, i just want tohrnaments that people will enjoy playing, varied settings on different maps, with winning the points race as a secondary or tertiary goal. in your RRs, winning the most games as possible is the primary goal. if i lose every game in every single elimknation i play i will still think it was fun. if i lose every game in an RR i would not find it to have been enjoyable.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 08:05:03

EZPickens 
Level 59
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I thought the original purpose of [20] was to have constant turnover - lower half/third of A would drop down to B while the upper half/third of B moved up to A, etc.

I've been playing 20B for the past 3 seasons. I even went undefeated in all the games one season - 1v1, 2v2, AND 3v3. Everyone in [20] is a formidable player so I can care less, but I was just curious if 20A has remained consistently the same people also.

Anyway, I pretty much agree with all what Qi said above. I'm just in it for the games to compete and have fun.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 10:26:39

NZPhoenix (AHOL) 
Level 63
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Fuck all this 20 grounds.

What Warlight TRULY needs is a drinking club.

I welcome you to the founding fathers: Tigger, Red, and last myself.

This will be a disaster. But so is 20.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 11:26:41

Qi 
Level 55
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็ฅž็ป็—…
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 11:46:49

Jehovah 
Level 58
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i think we should satisfy's jsa's ever existing thirst to prove himself as the greatest player in wl, the boy who could have reached #1 if only he tried. entertain whatever idiocy he has came up.
[20] and Proving Ground Round Robins: 8/10/2013 13:12:24

JSA 
Level 59
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Qi, why can't we do both?

EZPickens, I think [20A] has probably stayed pretty consistent but with a few minor changes, eg. Myself, Gnuffone, Anonymous, Falker, featherbucket, Frankdeslimste, marc, etc. just moved up to A this season. I think the biggest think you'll see is that very few people move out of A. I will gladly add you EZ, you were another person that was one of the last off my A list.

Pulsey, that doesn't even make sense, go troll somewhere else.
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