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Know When You've Lost: 5/8/2013 19:45:06


x 
Level 58
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Know when you have lost, and then surrender.

When you have lost, you should know it.
When you know you have lost, you should surrender.
When your opponent tells you that they have won, you should listen.

It's not too difficult.


Thanks for reading.
Know When You've Lost: 5/8/2013 19:51:44

Widzisz • apex 
Level 60
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Are you sure?
Know When You've Lost: 5/8/2013 20:05:38

Truthless Hero
Level 7
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So if I ever play you, I should just tell you that I have won on turn 2 and voila, guaranteed victory!
Know When You've Lost: 5/8/2013 23:51:46


x 
Level 58
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Yes, because "listen" is a synonym for "accept without any critical thought".
Know When You've Lost: 5/9/2013 05:46:01


Vanellope von Schweetz 
Level 60
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Know When You've Lost: 5/9/2013 11:29:34


Pink 
Level 60
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many of my defeats in the ladder (i have some auto defeats and stuff like that because i felt like it, but thats besides the point) are due to 2 early surrender, so i believe we shouldnt surrender just ebcause it might look like we are actually losing
Know When You've Lost: 5/9/2013 12:17:09

Jehovah 
Level 58
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stalling and not accepting surrenders are often useful for pissing off others. I noticed that sometimes if you do this, they eventually give up and you secure a vte or even a boot win.
Know When You've Lost: 5/9/2013 13:00:50


powerpos
Level 48
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You don't lose until you give up ...
Know When You've Lost: 5/9/2013 14:08:19

The Duke of Ben 
Level 55
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Knowing that you've lost is a skill that comes with practice, so I'm not sure how useful a blanket statement about "you should know when you've lost" can be seen as universal.

The better at that particular skill you are, the less you will waste turns on pointless moves. On the other hand, the worse you are at that skill, the less you should trust your belief about whether you should surrender or not.

Since any game exists one time and not again, it's important to maximize your benefit from each game. Surrendering early because you think you lost guarantees that you lose. Sticking around until things get better or you can be sure about your lost position is therefore always the right course of action.

Intentionally dragging games out by waiting until just before the autoboot has nothing to do with continuing to play your turns, in case that is the actual thought behind this thread.
Know When You've Lost: 5/9/2013 19:11:09


x 
Level 58
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Knowing that you've lost is a skill that comes with practice


I agree, but as evidenced in the three comments above you, it is a piece of etiquette that is yet to be adopted, even by many of the top players. (Just to make it clear though, falcon isn't a top player. The nicest thing I would call him would be "mammal", but there is still the possibility that he is a highly-developed insect or reptile.)

The biggest issue here is that there is nothing you can say to people who have clearly lost. And I mean OBVIOUSLY lost. You try to explain to them with maths that they can no longer win. If they think they can still win at that point, it is an insult to my intelligence. But they still get offended, even though they are the ones at fault.

There is unfair advantage to be gained by dragging out games beyond their natural term, as noted by the knuckle-draggers above. Especially on the ladder. So you need to be careful with that.

@powderpuff - would you not mind if, in every single game you ever played, every opponent fought to elimination? You agree then, that there is a line to be drawn.

And don't give me that prescriptivist shit like "they can do it if they like, it's their right". You're also able to boot people 1 second after the timer hits zero, but it's considered bad etiquette because it makes the game suck and wastes everyone's time.

I'm approaching retirement (sorry qi) anyway, so I don't know why I even care. I'm just trying to make the game better for you, the humble and honest forum-reader. No no, there's no need to thank me.
Know When You've Lost: 5/9/2013 19:24:53

The Duke of Ben 
Level 55
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In that case I generally agree with you, though I can understand how someone would find it rude to say "you should surrender because it's obvious you've lost."

I'm in a 2v2 tournament game right now where the one opponent got booted on distribution and the other elected to play it. Not a big deal, maybe they wanted to see if they could get a 1v1 and at least give it a try. Well then they lost one starting position and then their only bonus, and the game goes on. There's no reason for that, and in that case he should surrender.

I can't think of a good general rule that works in this case, because "you should know when you've lost" doesn't work very well for people who are bad at the game or bad at that particular skill. In the case of the person in my game, it's obvious to everyone. How to articulate that as a mode of play is difficult.
Know When You've Lost: 5/9/2013 22:38:52


x 
Level 58
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When some sad fuck wants to play a few rounds for sport when his teammate is booted, I don't mind indulging them out of pity. But yeah, when they have no bonus, it's labourious to have to track them down to the final territory. Then it's surrender time.

I don't believe it's a case of articulation. Needs to be a paradigm shift. I'm not even taking the general rabble into consideration, they will always boot at -1 seconds and put racial slurs and sexual references in game titles and so on. That's why I put this in the ladder forum - if you're a ladder player, you really have no excuse to do this kind of thing. And when you're called out on it, you shouldn't let it bruise your ego, you should take heed. Because you're the one who is fucking up by not surrendering in a timely fashion - whether through stupidity or malice.

Often it becomes malicious anyway, because people wield it like a weapon. They drag it out even longer when the feel they are justified in it. That's just trolling. gtfo my warlight. And I've done that before in the distant past. But ladder players = no excuse.

I intended to convey this in not-so-many words in the original post, but didn't I always know this thread was destined for quixotic and superfluous explication? Mostly I hoped someone else would come along and fight my corner for me.
Know When You've Lost: 5/9/2013 22:40:55


x 
Level 58
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Some inconsistent pronouns there. And labourious is british for laborious I guess.
Know When You've Lost: 5/10/2013 11:30:32


nich 
Level 59
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Examples:

http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=4207450
I should've surrendered a few days ago. I didn't because I was waiting on this:

http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=4207452

and this:
http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=4111115

To be fair Frankdeslimste may have been waiting for me to do something stupid which wouldn't be out of character.

I want to look like a really cool guy so I am reluctant to surrender when I know that I can win a game then get a higher rating and then get a "highest ranking ever achieved = XXXX".

Another factor is "drunk nich reckons it's time to give up - he's an idiot so I'll just play the closest turn to what I think he was thinking then leave it for hungover nich."
Know When You've Lost: 5/10/2013 11:45:48


nich 
Level 59
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I can probably give more embarrassing examples once I sober up.
Know When You've Lost: 5/10/2013 15:11:38


skunk940 
Level 58
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There are times when you can't win not matter what you do. I have faced many opponents who want except they have lost when they indefinitely have. Sometimes people just have to surrender. And sadly they don't.
Know When You've Lost: 5/10/2013 23:53:22

Omniscient 
Level 56
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"The biggest issue here is that there is nothing you can say to people who have clearly lost. And I mean OBVIOUSLY lost. You try to explain to them with maths that they can no longer win. If they think they can still win at that point, it is an insult to my intelligence. But they still get offended, even though they are the ones at fault."

I've found this to be very common among members of {101st}. At least 3-4 times I have had to ask them via chat why they were still playing when my income was double theirs. One of those times the response was "The fat lady hasn't sung yet.", and then he continued to play for another five or so turns before finally surrendering.
Know When You've Lost: 5/11/2013 01:57:36

Jehovah 
Level 58
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Omniscient, you really enjoy long paragraphs dont you?
Know When You've Lost: 5/11/2013 01:59:42


SevenDeadlySins*Lust*
Level 10
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Easy solution to your problems, quit playing with noobs.
Know When You've Lost: 5/11/2013 08:23:11

Not As Think As You Drunk I Am
Level 3
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"Easy solution to your problems, quit playing with noobs."

Easy solution to YOUR problem:

Read before responding.

He's specifically referring to ladder games.

Guess what: You don't pick your opponents on the ladder.
Know When You've Lost: 5/11/2013 08:33:06


SevenDeadlySins*Lust*
Level 10
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I didnt experience it as MY problem. Obviously YOU seem bothered enough to make my post YOUR problem.
Know When You've Lost: 5/11/2013 08:44:44

Not As Think As You Drunk I Am
Level 3
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Negative.

You responded in an illogical manner.

As such your problem was a failure to comprehend the topic at hand.
Know When You've Lost: 5/11/2013 09:05:04


SevenDeadlySins*Lust*
Level 10
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I didnt real all that stuff. This is all boring stuff, to which mostly everybody has the answer already. I read the first few posts and some other posts that didnt have too much text.
From my point of view it was not obvious that it is strictly referring to ladder games.
The reasons why ladder games are delayed are even more obvious.

So "my problem" was not the failure to comprehend the topic at hand, since if what you say is true (i still didnt bother to read it all) it evovled inside the thread.

In one point you are right though. Your tenacity made it my problem.
Know When You've Lost: 5/11/2013 22:28:32


x 
Level 58
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I'm not even taking the general rabble into consideration, they will always boot at -1 seconds and put racial slurs and sexual references in game titles and so on. That's why I put this in the ladder forum - if you're a ladder player, you really have no excuse to do this kind of thing.

- me


I don't play with noobs.

i still didnt bother to read it all


Then shut up.
Know When You've Lost: 5/25/2013 09:11:53


gobhoblin
Level 4
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Actually, whenever I think I'm losing, I end up winning. Whereas when I believe I'm ahead, I take a spiraling nosedive to a brutal lose. Not for the sake of irony, as it just turns out to be the norm far too often
Know When You've Lost: 6/1/2013 19:47:27


nagromo 
Level 56
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I'm a bit cautious about surrendering, because there's been a few games where I thought it was hopeless and I surrendered, only to see once the fog is gone that my opponent wasn't as unstoppable as I thought.

That said, I'm generally ranked 70th-80th, so I'm clearly not as experienced as some players here. And if my opponent clearly has much bigger stacks and much more income than me, I still surrender.
Know When You've Lost: 6/4/2013 18:42:35


Motocross5800 
Level 50
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Know When You've Lost: 6/6/2013 16:40:49


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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I agree with nagramo. I've had a few ladder matches where I thought they had secured another bonus (and were hiding income) and I might have been able to win the game.

If I am not %100 sure, I'll play a few more turns to find out. Especially if I don't know they are a good player (they may make a mistake).
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