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Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 02:33:49


Issander
Level 55
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This is a thing that really bugs me for some time.

There are a lot of good, interesting FFA games recently. Not everyone likes them, but I do. And then are people who play those games, make alliance, defeat the others... and then vote to end.

So, I ask, where is fun, strategy and challenge in winning a FFA game as a team?!

Don't get me wrong. There is nothing bad in the part before 'and then vote to end'. Alliances and diplomacy are essential parts of those games. But normally people do this and keep in mind that sooner or later they will fight their allies for ultimate victory, they are preparing for that moment, because this is FFA, and they play to win, not to kill several times weaker opponents. But if you vote to end after that, then I have one thing to say to you:

Congrats! You have just won an FFA game as the only team. You should put it on your acomplishement board just nexy winning football game with 2nd graders and defeating your children in chess. And by the way - you have spoiled the fun for me and other players.

And I'm not bitching about being attacked 2 on 1 or 3 on 1. That's how it is in FFA games. I wouldn't mind that in a fair game.

So... What to do about that?

Vote to end ability is essentially important on two ocasions: in team game, when beacase of some event one of the teams has lost a player and the game would have been otherwise unfair, and in any game which has gone wrong with settings, to quickly redo it.

If it was only the first case, then I would suggest just banning vote to end on FFA games. But there is the second. So I would say let's add an option to ban vote to end while creating the game. But then it would have been important for it to be defaultly set on 'off' in team games and on 'on' in FFA
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 06:03:05

Scorched Earth 
Level 49
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"Congrats! You have just won an FFA game as the only team. You should put it on your acomplishement board just nexy winning football game with 2nd graders and defeating your children in chess."

I wasn't aware children were bad at chess.

I've played chess since I was 5 and even as a child regularly beat my parents.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 06:04:28

Scorched Earth 
Level 49
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As for the actual topic, I don't see the point. They can't vote to end unless everyone playing agrees. If you've already been eliminated or surrendered what happens after that point doesn't affect you.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 06:30:32


Issander
Level 55
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Then maybe your parents weren't good at them? But, to the point:

I am affected at their style of playing. Because they have decided from the beginning or very early that they will do that, when I was still active in the game. One of the differences is reasoning with such players (but of course there are more). For example:

Imagine yourself being attacked by two allied player in normal FFA. Most probably you would be able to convince the weaker of them to ally against the stronger - which is fair, because you have the same chances, as they - you will lose if you are bad at diplomacy.

And now imagine the same situation, and those two players that have decided to kill everyone else and vote to end. There is no point in trying to convince them to do anything, cause they won't agree. They are a team, and you are alone.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 08:31:15

Qi 
Level 55
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Voting to end is absolutely necessary for FFAs. If you play games with Sze as the host he will make FFAs when everyone is expecting a 2v2 or 3v3.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 12:16:13


Aranka 
Level 43
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The most galling thing about FFA's is that I don't even like them.
And when you see an Imperium romanum 6 player!!!! map it is logical to presume it is a 3vs3 random team game, same with Rise of Rome.
So if there are already 4 or 5 players in there I join quickly to make sure the game hasn't started before I joined.
Then sometimes to my shock and amazement I come to understand it's not a 3vs3 team game but a FFA.
No one SAID it would be a FFA, all it said was Imperium Romanum map 2 min autoboot.
So understandbly I'm quite annoyed and would like to stop playing.
Some people (the host mostly) knows it's a FFA and doesn't want to vote to end even though I'm mostly not the only player who is suprised this game turned out to be a FFA.
So what happens then is that I form alliances with those people to take out all the players who don't want to vote to end to in the end be able to vote to end.
Now if the people who host a game would just be so kind as to MENTION it is a FFA then of course I had been forewarned and shall play it like it should be played.
Conclusion is I'll keep on voting to end unless people make it clear in the title what the game is about.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 13:35:16


ps 
Level 60
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Sometimes i vote to end on ffa where i had to make an alliance with someone to prevent us both from getting wiped out. it feels wrong to backstab them after collaborating. in those circumstances vote to end means us two survived the mayhem with a clean record while everyone else got a loss.

What still annoys me in FFA games are the ones where folks are allies from the start. So you don't even stand a chance. Having the member badge is also pretty annoying, folks tend to gang against you to kill off the biggest threat. In retrospect i don't like FFA games much.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 15:02:33


[REGL] Pooh 
Level 60
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Well, I just came to the realization after checking the wiki that Vote to end counts as a loss to those surrendered/eliminated/booted prior to the Vote taking place.

I think I'm in partial agreement with Issander. Vote to end should not be a default option in FFA games, and if it is, it should not affect win/loss stats.

There's a big difference between two allies teaming up on people when they know they have to eventually fight to the end (6 Men Enter, 2 Men Team Up to Eliminate Everyone Else, 1 Man Leaves!) as opposed to just calling it quits when it gets too tough. (6 Men Enter, 2 Men Team Up to Eliminate Everyone Else, everyone votes to end and sips some tea)

This just reaffirms my preference for 2 team games.

Now, I won't go so far as Aranka. The only time I ask to vote to end is when the title is wrong: EX: Says 3v3 when actually 2v2v2 or 6p FFA. If its ambiguous, its your fault for joining and not reading the settings, however, its okay to rely on a direct expression that the game is what its advertised to be.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 15:05:57


[REGL] Pooh 
Level 60
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@Aranka:

Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 15:06:35


Gnullbegg 
Level 49
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Aranka:
And when you see an Imperium romanum 6 player!!!! map it is logical to presume it is a 3vs3 random team game, same with Rise of Rome.

No, it's not. With a title like that, you can reasonably presume that the game takes place on one of the Rome maps and that it has more than five but less than seven players. That's it.

Conclusion is I'll keep on voting to end unless people make it clear in the title what the game is about.

Strange conclusion. Even accepting your premise, this does not follow. Plus it makes you look like an entitled br- unpleasant person when you do it in a game. So how about this for an alternative:
"I will learn to read the settings before joining a game."

Don't like FFA's? Fine, don't join them. You're always free to create your own 'Imperium romanum 6 players!!!!' games (maybe choose a better title though, it's a bit vague).
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 18:39:05


Ironheart
Level 53
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I agree with issander the only time voting to end in ffa should be done is if it's practice.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 19:06:34

Scorched Earth 
Level 49
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Your argument isn't sound.

Teams will exist whether vote to end is active or not.

Once you've lost to a team it shouldn't matter to you how the game pans out from that point on.entually b

Removing vote to end will not stop people from being teams, they'll just eventually fight each other at the end instead of voting. Both scenarios result in a loss for you.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 19:21:20


[REGL] Pooh 
Level 60
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Scorched, that's where you're wrong.

If you eventually have to overcome everyone to win, then you will play differently.

1 - you may shift your alliance to someone else
2 - you may sandbag more behind your lines and next to your "Ally" rather than fighting someone else

Those are just 2 examples.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/15/2013 19:21:35


[REGL] Pooh 
Level 60
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Think I'm wrong, just watch Hunger Games.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/16/2013 11:02:59


Ironheart
Level 53
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I watched hunger games i preferred it when there could only be 1 winner.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/17/2013 09:10:19


Anti-fizzer diet coke
Level 2
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voting to end is the voters' problem, vote to end = no one including those who got eliminated gets a defeat on their stats
in other words anyone who votes at the end of an ffa is shooting themself =3
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/17/2013 22:08:33


[WM] แต€แดดแดฑ๐“•๐“ป๐“ฒ๐“ญ๐“ฐ๐“ฎ 
Level 59
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+1 to Gui - this was literally my first thought after reading original post.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/18/2013 02:07:20

Seahawks 
Level 51
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i hate vote to end, its annoying when in a large ffa with only 3 people left they team up and attack me and then vote to end so they have no losses but everyone else (including me) has a loss
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/18/2013 07:46:41


aper 
Level 56
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no one including those who got eliminated gets a defeat on their stats
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/18/2013 07:51:48


aper 
Level 56
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no one including those who got eliminated gets a defeat on their stats

but you're wrong. as soon as you got eliminated / booted / surrendered it is counted to your stats as a defeat.

So, any secret deals between 2 or more player to vote to end a FFA is not only pointless, but unfair to everyone not included in that deal.



sorry for the double post...
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/20/2013 20:06:25

Cephistokles
Level 56
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I think it'd be ok to let the game creator choose whether to have a "hunger game" (disable vote to end) or not, even if its practice, but i dont think many ppl wont VTE in ranked games anyway, as they waste their win.(it obviously would be better to roll the dice to decide who wins, than to vote to end, if you are the remaining Alliance), so you can just fix that it wont end by vote by make a game ranked.


now i liked to define 3 types of how alliances end if players are not to bad backstabbers:
1. alliance is set until a specific turn, it ends when the turn is reached, if not extended; just because an end is set, you are surer than in Type 3 not to be backstabbed.
2. alliance is made until VoteToEnd; works mostly like a team if you trust each other
3. you just agreed an "alliance", which will be broken sooner or later, as no end is set and it isnt set endless (until VTE); this way its easy to argue, why you break it.

Type 3 is what diplomatical noobs are doing...
Type 1 is what you shall do in "hunger games"/ranked games (this way it wont gnaw your conscience)
Type 2 is what i do sometimes in practice games


I dont like hunger games, i dont like at all games with 4 or 3 players left to deal out who will be the winner.
I like games in which i just aim to expand my empire in realistic routes (rp-games), then ally with nice ppl until VTE
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/22/2013 11:17:15


ps 
Level 60
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ofcourse if you really really really _really_ hate the vote to end folks you can always enter (or create one if you are a member) FFA tournaments instead of single games. no chance of voting to end there.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/22/2013 15:15:33


Mudderducker 
Level 57
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My first and last say:
One: It doesn't matter wheather u do or not. As it is a game, plus it's a game with no rules about not VTEing on FFA. It is players own chooses wheather to do it or Not. no big deal.

It is Done, close thread.
Vote to and. Team game - yes, FFA - no?: 2/22/2013 19:05:26

DagenDaDragon (ReTIRED OF WARLIGHT) 
Level 34
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Hmm...
Okay, so VTE in a FFA isn't okay, Because it allows to players to finish the game without breaking a alliance, that was formed in the game?
Well that is what I understand the problem is, please correct me if I got that wrong, but that is what I shall be responding too.
However if you are talking about people before joining, or finding out there starting spots, they make an alliance, that I have some problems with.

    1.The silly argument, that if others abuse it, you can too!

You need to work on your diplomacy, if this is happening often for you, then there are plenty of people who you should be able to enter into an agreement to fight to the end with, then VTE?
You just need to enlist them to help you!

    2. The dangers of doing this, where I may or may not make a somewhat coherent argument.

I personally would be wary to enter into a alliance where someone said they would play till the end and VTE, as I would assume at some point one of us would backstab the other.

    3. GLORY! *snicker*hole*snicker* (I'm definitely not a immature teenager. :P)
    Also where I make a point, using a personal game, because that makes my e-peen bigger.

Winning a FFA as the last person alive, I personally find more rewarding then being the second last alive or one of two.
So there is the personal glory to winning a large FFA and being able to brag about it or whatever, which isn't as much there if you VTE.
However I have played a game(only one comes to mind) where it was 24 players, and it went on till like turn 200. Medium earth, and by the end there was so much, debt and emotion and me and the other guy who was alive, simply vte as although one of us was stronger, neither wanted to fight. In that case, I felt there was glory, I was still alive, I had played, and in my mind won all that I wanted to win, I didn't need to be the last alive, vte as the last 2 was good enough for me.

    4. Where I seal my argument up, simply an- SCREW THIS

Wow I always wanted to make a fancy post like that... hehe!
Anyways I'll leave the lists and walls-0-text for other people from now on.
What I am saying is, the whole thing with FFA's is there is no honor, there is glory and bragging rights, but no "honor" by playing one. So to you I say what I say to the people who complain about alliances, fog, talking, backstabs, Get over it, seriously, and next game try doing it yourself!
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