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are new maps really needed?: 6/25/2014 19:32:54


Ranek
Level 55
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As I have a look at the open games, most of the time I see exactly the same games, which might depend on the default games, which are ready to go at any time, but there is rarely anything beyond that. Thpse cirqumstances makes me think about all the other maps which are rarly to never played by the community. Maybe there are not worth a game or just not high enough rated to be under the first 25 maps to be mentioned at the first view at the first page when anyone considers a new game.
So how often is the average map beyond the first 25 maps played? Is that worth the effort of creating new maps. Although the best reason to create a map is, if you like to play it. Do you have an idea to make low rated maps more popular?
are new maps really needed?: 6/25/2014 19:42:37


master of desaster 
Level 65
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Maybe we could implement a 'template of the week/day'. New maps are already published but many players who would probably play it don't know how to make a good template. Experienced template creators don't "waste" their time in creating new templates if nobody plays them i think. Like that, good, unknown maps with good settings would be played more often.
are new maps really needed?: 6/25/2014 20:31:52


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Yes, new maps are needed.

However, I would agree that probably %90 of the maps are almost never played. Not sure that is really an issue, since it really only matters to Fizzer (storage space). But I see no reason why he could not purge the database of maps rated super poorly (1 or lower) and/or ones that have not been played in a long time.

I'm not sure you can make most maps popular. There are lots of junk maps that are beyond hope probably.
are new maps really needed?: 6/25/2014 21:24:02


Mudderducker 
Level 57
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Everyone should be allowed to make whatever they want. (Obviously within rules).

But map makers should realise and some do, the chances of their map being played. Some questions normally are: Is there a point? Will it get played? If they decide to go ahead and make a map that doesn't get played, no problem for warlight, just a waste of time for them. Does it bother us that much.

I personally make whatever I want, because I enjoy it. But I've also looked more into some projects. Example, British Isles) because I knew it had a good chance to be played. Pretty much every time I look in the open games, my maps being played ;). But then say Reddead redemption, I make for one off strategy games, not a popular map.
are new maps really needed?: 6/25/2014 21:37:36


The National Socialist
Level 54
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I actually really liked RedDead Redemptiom. Fun map :)
are new maps really needed?: 6/25/2014 21:47:06

CROivan
Level 46
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Map rating can't go below 1
are new maps really needed?: 6/25/2014 21:52:34


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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Ranek, I am pretty sure the same question could have been asked prior to your creating your two maps. Hell, it was probably an accurate statement before I made my first map back in November of 2011.

Kind of ridiculous to question the necessity of creating new maps when you just released one a few weeks ago despite there already being over 1000 maps...
are new maps really needed?: 6/25/2014 21:55:31


Ranek
Level 55
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master of desaster, I really like your idea about the template of the week. I guess that would be a cool thing to make the community more familiar with the massive amount of maps in warlight and might even give them ideas for well ballanced templates.
Or maybe something like a random generator with saved templates or category with saved templates.

ChrisCMU, I dont think that most of the unknown maps are beyond hope and if they are Im pretty sure that they might not need to be deleted - the storage space for thousand maps is maximum 2GB.

EDIT:
Apollo and Richard you may missed to get my intention (unfortunately, I didnt got your first and hardly your second part Richard). I dont want the community to play my maps more often and I really dont complain about ignorance or what ever the reason is for refuse about 99% of the maps. Im rather sorry that warlight has such an incredible amount of maps which nobody seem to know. I simply want to figure out some ideas to improve that lack of experimental joy.

Edited 6/25/2014 22:11:44
are new maps really needed?: 6/25/2014 21:56:58


Captain Bob
Level 44
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yes
are new maps really needed?: 6/25/2014 22:00:17


Red Menace
Level 55
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Fizzer should create new achievements for certain maps. Ex:

- Capture xy superbonus on xy with at least 5 enemy players. (Without scenario)
are new maps really needed?: 6/25/2014 22:13:19


Ranek
Level 55
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yeah I think an achievement like 'x completed multy player games, each on a different map' would be a good idea as well.

Edited 6/25/2014 22:17:49
are new maps really needed?: 6/25/2014 22:24:05


Wenyun 
Level 59
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Well I was bored so...

But I see no reason why he could not purge the database of maps rated super poorly (1 or lower)

I dont think that most of the unknown maps are beyond hope and if they are Im pretty sure that they might not need to be deleted

Aside from lower than 1 being impossible, well, here's some statistics on map ratings.

7 maps are at or below a 2.0 rating*
70 maps are at or below a 2.5 rating*
325 maps are at or below a 3.0 rating* (325/1055 = ~30.8%)
429 maps are at or below a 3.25 rating* (429/1055 = ~40.6%)
(The Median Rating is 3.37)
630 maps are at or below a 3.5 rating* (630/1055 = ~59.7%)
850 maps are below a 3.75 rating*
The 200th highest rated map is rated 3.75
984 maps are below a 4.0 rating*
71 maps are at or above a 4.0 rating* (71/1055 = ~6.7%)

*According to the maps screen. Some of these maps, when rounded to the fourth digit, are slightly more (less for the last one) than the threshold, but that doesn't matter.

I think the problem here is deleting maps would offend potential great mapmakers, and I realized this when I was trying to set a rating on maps that I would, myself, consider throwing out. Where do you make that point, and what judgment will be used?

and/or ones that have not been played in a long time.

... which might screw over tournaments that will start in 10 years from now and/or ones that will move after the inactive people get booted in 100+ days due to no autoboot.

Either way Fizzer seems convinced that letting all games be viewable at all times is the best idea, and deleting maps would go against that convention. This is why old versions of maps aren't deleted (but rather retired).




Aside from the people who go on the forums, the best way to advertise maps is to go out there yourself and create tournaments/games for those maps. Make low(er) pre-reqs so it's viewable to most players. When I did this it caused a few other games to pop up with the map I used. Remember, it's your map, you should be proud of it and play games on it :P

Use your sense of the map and it's gameplay/style (After all, you created it, you should know the map well!) to make a good template for it. (Making a good template is important! A bad one will lower your rating a bit, since players won't experience the full map and rate based off of one game) Post the template in the description to help those who don't know how to make a good template. (I know ChrisCMU did this, I think I did this for one of my maps, haven't seen much others...)

... if you want to promote other people's maps... Lawlz's "TrueSkill" idea wasn't actually half-bad - it just had poor execution and a forum that loved trolling the host. In other words, think of interesting ideas, open some open games for unused maps, and let the Warlight community see more of what Warlight holds :)

Edited 6/25/2014 22:36:29
are new maps really needed?: 6/25/2014 23:57:52

Weaselbee
Level 36
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So that is a great way to end the forum from Ryanitie, like a speech from a movie really, but I just had to say this.

I really liked the idea that master of desaster had and so, I will be doing a "map of the week" where I pick a map that hasn't been used but has great potential and I will bring it before the public. I will make games based off of that map for a week and then move on, but I don't know if that gives the map a fighting chance. I am starting a forum in the general topic based on your idea. Thanks master of disaster!
are new maps really needed?: 6/26/2014 00:08:29

Weaselbee
Level 36
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the new forum is at http://warlight.net/Forum/Thread?ThreadID=47084 is you have suggestions or like the idea
are new maps really needed?: 6/26/2014 00:16:19


Ranek
Level 55
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Riyamitie thanks for your vast reply.

Well I was bored


seems like you become pretty productive, when youre bored. In any case, I dont want to claim the responsebility for unknown (and underrated) maps. I still believe that this is a generally issue and deserves a more seriously solution, or maybe not, just want to talk about it, but thanks for the hidden cynicism, which was entertaining =)

Edited 6/26/2014 11:23:07
are new maps really needed?: 6/26/2014 02:46:56


Wenyun 
Level 59
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...Well, to answer the topic a bit better...

Instead of looking at rating, the number of reviews is a better notice of activity.

The top 5 are probably these...

Earth: 2390 (Newbie's 1v1, Single Player Level 3/Crazy, Featured Maps)
Europe: 2161 (Europe 3v3's, Featured Maps)
Imperium Romanium: 1852 (Guiroma, Normal IR, [On Kongregate IIRC, but not featured])
Medium Earth: 1776 (Strat 1v1 and 2v2, Most Seasons, Featured Maps)
Rise of Rome: 1720 (Commonly used for 4v4 and 5v5?)

... and to round off the rest of the Featured Maps section...
Small Earth: 1541, United States: 974, Africa: 675, Double Earth: 507

Take some samples of the top 50. You'll either get a new map, or it'll have hundreds, if not thousands of votes... Now, take some samples of something in the middle. You'll be lucky if you get a map that breaks 100.




The reason why maps with higher ratings are played more is obvious - They're on the top in everything. No one really scrolls down or goes to the next page unless they're specifically looking for a map.* New maps get played because there's a section for them where they can compete (and the Newest First option).

Featured Maps get played because there's a section for them, too. One of the best solutions that would require little player effort is to have the featured maps section rotate maps (The current ones can stay, just have new ones rotate.) The maps that it would feature would have a decent rating (3<X<4, most likely) and maybe a low number of ratings, if need be. (Either that, or put it to a vote to the forum community with said restrictions. Should be easy anyway.)

*And this is why you create games with your map. If someone likes it, they'll specifically look for it (Or rate it 5 and use "sort by my rating", which is even better.) If you're lucky enough, the chain will continue for a bit. (I'm trying to do this with my maps - my first has settled well enough for me, but I'm working on the others.)
are new maps really needed?: 6/26/2014 09:18:24


Incaman
Level 56
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Riyamitie is quite right and i totally agree with him. One thing mapmakers need to understand is that they HAVE to host and create games on their maps. People are not going to bother playing a new map, this is a pattern that i see repeating over and over again. I won't go into why that is so, in fact i don't think i even know why. If you want to make your map popular and get more ratings, there is only one solution, create games on your map (the design and playability of your map have a saying of course).

@ master of desaster

I actually tried the "template of the week/day" way back and hosted games on all new maps. It didn't go too good, but maybe that is because i didn't advertise it on the forums. Anyway i support your idea :D and think it will be great if it works, so good luck :D.

One more thing is very important in my opinion, most new mapmakers are too eager to release their maps they don't bother finishing them. The result is badly designed, horribly unbalanced maps that most of the time don't even get the required 10 ratings and end up on the bottom. Practice maps should not be published. Ok, you made a map and it looks bad. Delete it and start a new one, you will get better with each try, until you finally have something worth publishing. How do you know it's bad? That's why the mapmaking forum exist. Listen to the opinion and critique of other mapmakers. This may sound a bit harsh to some but i honestly think it will result in increasing the quality vs quantity.
are new maps really needed?: 6/26/2014 12:05:22


Belgian Gentleman 
Level 56
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Yes maybe an extra achievement for playing x number of different maps.
I like those ideas on this thread. Keep them incoming!
are new maps really needed?: 6/26/2014 13:59:43


eliod 
Level 57
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Maybe it's an Idea, if everyone could add rateable templates on a Map-Side.
Or how about a "random-map auto-game"?
are new maps really needed?: 6/26/2014 19:43:52


Red Menace
Level 55
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yeah yeah that sounds cool, like a Auto-game for a new map and template every week!
are new maps really needed?: 6/26/2014 19:43:53


Red Menace
Level 55
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yeah yeah that sounds cool, like a Auto-game for a new map and template every week!
are new maps really needed?: 6/26/2014 23:46:56


Kenny • apex 
Level 59
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Rise of Rome is really not all that strategic, it's just very interesting looking and very appealing as it is big enough to host a lot of people (which seems to be a trend among new players). It's kinda like what Medium Asia was like when I had joined. Big enough to host large FFAs and interesting enough to make it stand out from the other maps.
are new maps really needed?: 6/27/2014 08:32:36


Incaman
Level 56
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No one said it was "all that strategic", whatever that means. Rise of Rome, now that you mentioned it, does exactly what it was made for. I love playing 4vs4 and 3vs3 but Medium Asia was getting boring and repetitive and there were no other maps for 4vs4 that i liked, so i created one that i did like. When that got boring i made a new one ;). Anyway the point wasn't to degrade other mapmakers nor state that my maps are better than theirs, I trying make a different point but i guess you didn't catch it.

People should make maps they like to play on and play them. "very interesting looking" was exactly my point, as long it's not unplayable in terms of bonus balance it's fine with me. Most players are casual players and no one cares about that strategic value, or whatever you call it, it's a game :D

In the end, you should ask yourself "if i don't like playing on my map, why would others?"

Edited 6/27/2014 08:38:33
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