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Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 03:24:42


uga98
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Lots of people like too say the Russians won WW2, or that America saved Russia from the loss. Well I gotta say Russia won because They got help. Look at 1942. Stalingrad was doomed, the Russians at the defense of their own capital, and what happens? Russia finally rolls out its tank to retake stalingrad right at the moment We take north Africa. Hitler's best general is sent to fight a revived Western Allied force, leaving him with little good generals to battle.
In my opinion we saved Russia from annihalation by taking pressure off of them, and yet they still claim they beat the Germans. Not that we didnt need them, its that they didnt win the war. Kursk was a fluke , Hitler screwed up his head general, and then he took his SS panzers out of the battle. Russia had a clear path except for the capital cities, to rape and destruction
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 04:01:39


sasha grey
Level 54
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Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 04:26:45

[UN] dkristopherw
Level 29
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Hmmm. . . quite.
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 05:22:07


myhandisonfire 
Level 54
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haha sasha grey +1
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 07:18:30

RvW 
Level 46
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The Axis couldn't win against both its opponents. Let's over-simplify and reduce military power to a single number: Western Allies 2, Eastern Allies 2, Axis 3. Then we get 2 + 2 > 3. But, who should get the credit then...? Hell, even if we make it 99 + 2 > 100, then the conclusion is still: "couldn't have done it alone".
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 07:23:57


DeмoZ 
Level 56
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nice sasha.

Agree with RvW

End of story
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 09:40:21


[中国阳朔]TexasJohn 
Level 35
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It's a numbers game, really. To say any one Allied nation won the war by itself is a mistake, of course, but you have to consider the numbers the Germans were facing on the Eastern Front versus the numbers the Western Allies were facing. I don't really feel like looking up the exact numbers, I am sure someone else can do that if they really want, but there were only around 20 or so German divisions on the Western Front at any one time, while there were around 200 on the Eastern Front.

As to the claim that the Germans lost because they "didn't have any good generals in the East", that is not really the case. There were plenty of decent generals on every front for every army, but the weakness the Wermacht faced was that the generals weren't able to do their job properly. Corporal Adolf fancied himself a military genius, and constantly overruled his generals, causing the Germans to do silly things such as establish "fortresses". This meant that numerous German soldiers were surrounded and either killed or surrendered en masse.

Another factor is the industrial might of the Allied powers. Both the Russians and the Americans were able to roll out massive numbers of decent medium tanks (in the Russian case, massive numbers of the best medium tank of WWII). This, along with the fact that Hitler really liked massive and expensive heavy tanks, and gave them production priority over the already quite powerful MkIV tanks, was really a big mistake. Were the Panther MkV and Tiger MkVI great tanks? Yeah, if you can get around the serious mechanical problems caused by their introduction before proper testing, they were pretty damned powerful. But if the Allies could afford to lose 5-10 tanks for every supercat the Gaermans made, what's the use of having better tanks?
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 10:51:16

RvW 
Level 46
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@TexasJohn:
Don't forget the additional issue of German tanks being made in factories targeted by bombardments, while Russia had factories so far away from the front lines they were nearly immune to counter-attacks (the American factories were of course utterly out of reach of German planes, but the convoys transporting their output to Europe were very much within reach of German submarines).
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 12:42:38


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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don't forget the summer attack on russia without proper winter supplies, or winter ready vehicles... hitler expected to win before winter... and had the gall to attack in summer rather than spring...
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 13:59:10


Ironheart
Level 53
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you all made me feel dumb all of sudden
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 14:01:51


Diabolicus 
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One does not simply walk into Mordor .... especially not without winter supplies, on a +1000km long front line, when Mordor can muster at least 10 times more orcs each year and has the elves as allies. The end.
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 14:17:42


uga98
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@TexasJohn Youre half right about tanks, like the king tiger tha couldnt even fit on standard sized roads, but lets not forget the tanks that couldve won kursk, if hitler didnt screw them up.



Russia was pretty lucky they had asiastic Russia, if Russia was just the european state, then they wouldve been done after stalingrad, but they claim the asians as russians, which gives them lots of more troops and lots of more resources. **If you had put it on a 1v1 scale it wouldve been German Victory until they reached the Urals, but they failed due to their many fronts of war, like The austro-hungarian empire in 1914**
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 14:23:38


sasha grey
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Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 14:26:37


sasha grey
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stop this guy from posting, i can't laugh anymore
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 14:35:07


myhandisonfire 
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Yeah he is great entertainment.
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 15:01:07


BaronHarkonnen
Level 31
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So true kar98K !

After the GDGPF (German Decent General Production Facilites) got destroyed (more precisely for the sake of accuracy: the main conveyor belt was smashed) in a night bombardment in late 1942 there was a serious shortage in decent german generals. How could historians overlook this fact? All other things in Germany at that time, like food, tanks, airplanes, fuel, soldiers and so on were available in big abundance.

THIS EXPLAINS IT ALL, kar98K !
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 15:18:00


uga98
Level 2
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@Sasha Grey What the hell is that shit picture supposed to mean
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 16:34:12

[UN] dkristopherw
Level 29
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I believe that is a picture of him, as Mickey Mouse, ripping out his eyeballs in order to be unable to read things that you post. But back on to the topic at hand.

Hmmm. . . quite.
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 16:49:01


Askingforit138
Level 26
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I have to say Russia, won because of her great determination.
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 16:50:46


Askingforit138
Level 26
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The axis still could've won WW2 only if, they have invaded Britian before bringing Russia in the war, Finish off Russia, and dont bring the US into the war, until it was absoutley nessacary.
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 18:18:40


[中国阳朔]TexasJohn 
Level 35
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To discuss the ways the Germans COULD have won WWII is retarded. There about 1,000 different things that could POSSIBLY have allowed German victory. I know what is not one of those things: a lack of good generals. But I digress.

Also, let us not sully the discussion with talk of "the Axis". It was Germany fighting a war, and Japan fighting a war against the same people. That makes them "the Axis", although the certainly didn't work together, what with the Japs clearly being untermenschen. What comprised the Western "axis"? Germany, and a bunch of other countries Hitler made fight for them. Italy was ok against Ethiopia, but the were out of things by 1940. Not prepared to fight a proper modern war, although they did have decent equipment. Who else? Romania? Vichy France? Bulgaria? Hungary? Give me a break!

Lastly, to the comment about American convoys being under threat of German sub attack. That threat was pretty much nil by 1943-44, also known as the time when the Americans got proper serious about the war in Europe. The glorified wolfpacks of Nazi Germany were no match for the escort carrier-based dive bombers and shore-based B-24s (or whatever the Naval version was called) of the US. The Allies dominated the Atlantic by 43, and by 44 the world's oceans were completely controlled.
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 19:44:58


Najdorf
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if hitler had left russia and followed through with an invasion of england, then there would have been no chance. The only reason the axis lost the war was because they simply couldnt fight the massive numbers. Germany could have eventually taken england and then a full scale attack with all troops on russia would have been successful. they could have taken africa, then helped japan win their war.
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 19:54:49

RvW 
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|> If you had put it on a 1v1 scale it wouldve been German Victory until they reached the Urals, but they failed due to their many fronts of war, like The austro-hungarian empire in 1914

But it wasn't a "1v1 scale" (whatever that may mean). When they attacked Russia, it was perfectly clear what they were getting into. I'd certainly say that anyone picking a fight they should know they cannot hope to win simply deserves the defeat.

Speaking of their many fronts, here's an interesting quote (from a television show, but common knowledge since ancient times):

|> "Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

I have no idea how many fronts Germany had exactly, but West, East and Africa at the very least and arguably the Winter War front where they were helping Finland.

---

@TexasJohn:
|> It was Germany fighting a war, and Japan fighting a war against the same people. That makes them "the Axis", although the certainly didn't work together, what with the Japs clearly being untermenschen.

That's simply not true; at least one German submarine was sunk while en-route to Japan (to deliver a shipment of Uranium if memory serves). How that matches with their political doctrine I cannot explain (and I have indeed wondered about that before).
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 20:01:34


Askingforit138
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I wonder if The US would've left Britian alone, if Germany invaded....
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 20:45:25


Min34 
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somebody said (i have no idea who): smart people will never win a war, because smart people will never start a war. And in war there are no winners, in the end everybody has lost somebody and everybody is sad :(
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 20:56:06


BaronHarkonnen
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guys ... really a most futile discussion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

What you guys think would have happened if Germany would not have surrendered in May 1945 ?
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/7/2012 21:03:36


Min34 
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they would have been beaten and in the end nothing would change. The Americans wouldn`t trow an A-bomb when they are winning. When the germans surrenderd the most of Germany was already taken. If they trew an A-bomb they would have killed most of the soldiers in europe and parts of the population of the lands around Germany.
(sorry for my bad englisch)
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/8/2012 02:55:55


uga98
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To all the "prophets" ;ike texasjohn who want to pick at my post, name some great generals besides Rommel you heard that Nazi Germany had. Chances are you may be able to name two, if you've read your history books. Lets think about this for a second, Heinreich Himmler, a coward , chief of polic, and commisioner for the strengthening of Germandom (pathetic) was put in charge of defending Germanies Jewel in the East, Prussia. Hitler knew Himmler was a politician, not a general and you think hitler put him there for no reason? Yeah thats what you call bad generals . *The other "bad generals " it wasnt due to their thought, I WROTE THE THREAD IN A HURRY, could've been good, but Coporal Hitler who in 25 years was promoted to dictator of the reich MESSED THEM UP.* So I apologize for that part I was in a hurry

But on the page of nuclear bombs, America wouldnt have been even able to drop bombs on Germany because by then Germany would have hundreds of miles of AA and flak that bombs couldnt avoid, and we borrowed the idea of missiles from Germany
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/8/2012 03:52:38

[UN] dkristopherw
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@Kar98k

Um. . . We pretty much ignored all that flak when we started bombing the living hell out of everything in 1943. The brits were there two, they can vouch for us. Flak would not have had any affect on the bomb, nor would fighter aircraft or jets starting in late 1944. We had air superiority of pretty much everything.

Just my two cents.
Might of the Russian Army?: 4/8/2012 05:42:31


[中国阳朔]TexasJohn 
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Guderian, Kesselring, von Kleist, Kluge, Manstein, Model, von Rundstedt, Student. The German Wermacht was a very well-trained and well-led fighting force, with the exception of the highest of commands (Hitler, etc). Himmler was given a token command far too late to do any good, and was more an act of desperation by Hitler rather than any rational (as rational as Hitler could be, at least) choice.

I'm sorry, you said the AAA (flak) could have stopped an A-bomb attack on Germany? Because it did SO well against traditional bombs, eh? And let's not delude ourselves with the fact that the A-bombs were a particularly deadly weapon; the firebombing campaigns in Germany and Japan were far more deadly, in terms of numbers killed (particularly in Japan, due to most buildings being built of wood and paper).

I know that Germany occasionally sent submarines to Japan with technical drawings, uranium, etc. But one cannot really say that this was a real alliance, as there was never any actual military help given. They were essentially two separate wars. There was certainly never any coordination between the Japs and the Germans, a la Yalta. Hell, the Japs couldn't even coordinate between the Imperial Army and Navy!
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