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Bourse?: 2/27/2012 21:31:13

not_spartacus 
Level 3
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Would there be any interest in a Bourse game played through the forum? A bourse is an all-comers metagame predicting game results by buying and selling shares in the players. No combat is involved, it's purely a metagame.

If there is interest I'll post some rules and set up a game: I have a small tournament in mind that might work with it.
Bourse?: 2/27/2012 22:08:58


NecessaryEagle 
Level 56
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I'm not sure what you're talking could you explain it further or post a link to a description or something?
Bourse?: 2/27/2012 22:18:21


Ironheart
Level 53
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sounds great hopefully it light fog or no fog
Bourse?: 2/27/2012 22:37:10

not_spartacus 
Level 3
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Yes, light or no fog: you'd need maximum info so it becomes skill in predicting and buying the right teams at the right time
Bourse?: 2/27/2012 22:58:48

not_spartacus 
Level 3
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The rules would look something like this (but haven't quite worked through for loopholes or cockups yet)

**Warlight Bourse**

*Basics*
1. Any number of people can play.
2. Everyone starts with 100 Warlight Zloty.
3. The winner of the bourse will be the player with the most Zloty at the end of the bourse, which will be the end of the tournament.
4. A tournament will be set up, with while the bourse will interact. This will likely be a small 3v3 tournament.

*Buying and selling shares*
5. At any time, you can buy and sell shares in any team in the tournament by saying so in the forum. Shares cost the total income of the team concerned, and return the total income of the team concerned minus 2.
6. For ease of calculation, incomes are measured on turns 5, 10, 15, 20.....eg if you buy/sell on turn 17, turn 15 incomes will be used to determine the prices concerned. Before turn 5, incomes are assumed to be 15 Zloty per team.
7. You can't buy shares you can't afford, and you can't sell shares you don't have.
8. When a tournament game involving a team in which you have shares ends, your shares are automatically sold and the money returned to you. (so shares don't persist between tournament rounds).

*Other bits*
8. As Bourse Director, Not_Spartacus will periodically publish scores in the forum. Players will then find the errors in the scores, and the Bourse Director will republish scores. Repeat.
9. Conflict of interest: this is a free market, conflict of interest is permitted. Conflict of interest may indeed even be an advantage.
10. No buying or selling or cash transfers between players. No loans.
11. The bourse ends when the tournament ends.
12. Bourse Directors decisions final.
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 00:35:06


{rp} Clavicus Vile 
Level 55
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This sounds fun, i'd be up for it.
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 03:33:30


[WM] Dazed & Insane 
Level 50
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I'm game
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 04:06:09


DeмoZ 
Level 56
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I'm in; gambling is my passion.
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 04:44:32


Blue 
Level 51
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I'm in
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 08:11:44

not_spartacus 
Level 3
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OK, Ill try to get it all sorted sometime in the next week.
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 10:49:48


Domenico
Level 16
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I do think you might want to change rule 6, because it'd make making profit far too easy.
If I see that a team's income on turn 3 is already 36 and I can still buy a share for 15 złoty, something weird would have to happen for me not to make profit.

Therefore, if I buy a share on turn 3, it'd be better if you used turn 5 prices, i.e. I "order" a share that I get on turn 5 for the turn 5 price.

By the way, if we're using złoty as a currency, then I suppose the map will be Poland.
We could also conceive a currency name of our own, something based on war... maybe use this ₩ as a sign.
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 11:36:45

Gauteamus
Level 3
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Sounds interesting!
Some fine tuning of the bidding rules may be needed, but we'll only know that if we try it.

Playing around with currency names:
1 W = 1 Wound Warling (pound sterling)
1 W = 1 Warchme (drachme)
1 W = 1 Won (korean monetary unit :)
1 W = 1 Winar (dinar)
Warlight Zloty sounds good though
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 12:39:13


Domenico
Level 16
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A Warling sounds pretty nice. Winar...? Neh. Indeed, Warlight złoty is a fine currency as well. Then Wlz. could be the abbreviation, right?
Indeed, we'll probably find out what to change best by trying, but I'm pretty sure rule 6 has to change, so might as well do that before the first tournament.

Oh by the way, in case you wonder, I'm in.
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 15:29:04

The Duke of Ben 
Level 55
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You'd have to tailor the map and total map income such that 100 currency could actually purchase a team with a non-winning income. In the Poland map, for instance, 3v3 could easily be 200 income verses 200 income. A very fair fight, but impossible for someone to buy into.
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 15:53:48

RvW 
Level 46
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Good point Duke, but wouldn't an easier solution be to just increase the 100 starting currency? I guess you don't want the players in the tournament itself to be "burdened" by their tournament being used for a meta-game, right?
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 16:42:51


Moros 
Level 50
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I'm in! Who can do some clever scripting to make some sort of online program that keeps track of each player's income and all stakes and such?
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 17:52:24


Imagination 
Level 23
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Sounds interesting... I look forward to more details ^_^
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 17:57:54


{rp} General Mac 
Level 53
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Nice idea !! im definitely in !!

Show me the Zloty!!

Show me the Zloty!!

:D
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 18:05:23


{rp} General Mac 
Level 53
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i too think it would be too easy to make money if you took the readings every 5 turns. that would be like betting on horses for last weeks races :)
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 18:27:04


Ace Windu 
Level 56
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Sounds cool, I'm interested :)
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 18:29:40


Rainbow Dash (Kurtis)
Level 10
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Sounds difficult i mean i'm having trouble understanding almost everything

Bourse? is that even a word?
Zloty? is that even a word?

i mean i really don't get these words

in b4 bringing out the diconary
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 19:10:53


Domenico
Level 16
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Bourse is basically a fancy word for Stock Exchange.
The złoty is the currency of Poland.

So yes, they are words, but maybe they should change:

Warshare (instead of warfare... geddit?)
₩ (for whatever fictitious currency we may conceive)
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 20:17:50


Moros 
Level 50
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I support the Weuro!
Well, I think Warling is the best idea posted for so far, it doesn't directly relate to sterling, but zloty is something nobody has ever heard of except for the Polish.
Bourse?: 2/28/2012 20:25:12

not_spartacus 
Level 3
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Thanks for all the comments!


|>I do think you might want to change rule 6, because it'd make making profit far too easy.
If I see that a team's income on turn 3 is already 36 and I can still buy a share for 15 złoty, something weird would have to happen for me not to make profit.
Therefore, if I buy a share on turn 3, it'd be better if you used turn 5 prices, i.e. I "order" a share that I get on turn 5 for the turn 5 price.

I can see your point: I'd like to use more regular intervals, but the calculations and keeping track of the turn timings would be horrendous. Ordering in advance would be interesting, but could get intricate given different games will move at different speeds: you'd probably have to be able to sell on the spot still, and only order "buys". I'll have to get my head round that one!


|>By the way, if we're using złoty as a currency, then I suppose the map will be Poland.

Nooo...don't like Poland, might do AD1600. Which does have Poland in it...I just like the sound of Zloty. Warlight Ducats also has a ring to it.


|>You'd have to tailor the map and total map income such that 100 currency could actually purchase a team with a non-winning income. In the Poland map, for instance, 3v3 could easily be 200 income verses 200 income. A very fair fight, but impossible for someone to buy into.

Good point, I'll have to check that out...might be that increasing the start money is the best way.


|>Bourse? is that even a word?

Yes. Way back when turn-based games were young, in the 1980's, this sort of game was called a bourse, so I'll stick with that. And it might bring Warlight a bit of sophistication :-)
Bourse?: 3/1/2012 10:36:19


Domenico
Level 16
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Well, złoty is a specifically Polish currency, which did exist in AD 1600, but would more likely be called florin or guilder in English.
Plus if we use złoty as a currency, some people may think we're using real money.
The won is less common, plus the link between ₩ (or Wl.) and Warlight is more obvious.
And even with no actual name, I think ₩ is a pretty suitable currency sign.

As for rule 6, I agree keeping track of all timings would be a horrendous jobs. I think this would count for sales just as well as buys.
Then again, I agree that you should be able to sell on the spot and, if that's possible, you should be able to buy on the spot, too.
Could we perhaps ask the the game's contenders to post the incomes after every turn?

Otherwise, you could consider having only one share for each team, effectively meaning you *buy a team*. That could make things simpler, but it should be a last resort.

As for the start money, incomes will only go up in the early turns. Soon, people will have at least ₩ 1,000 at their disposal, so that should be enough to buy into a lucrative match.

Will the tournament be a Round Robin and how many teams will be in it?
Bourse?: 3/1/2012 10:57:47

RvW 
Level 46
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I think the WL API could be used to get an overview of income in each turn. BUT...:

- You'll need a member to run the it: `<error>This API may only be used by members</error>`
- It doesn't tell you what the incomes for each player are, the analyzer will have to calculate that on its own. (Note: do NOT take a shortcut and sum the reinforcements placed at the beginning of each turn, because those also include card effects (Reinforcement Cards and Sanctions Cards).
- The wiki doesn't specifically mention whether the API gives you time stamps for each turn, so you might have to add those manually.

No matter which way you keep track of what happens in the game, you'll need to agree on a (very strictly defined!) format for posting purchasing / selling orders in the forum, so that those can be parsed automatically as well.

Before the summer holidays I definitely won't have time to write code for a just-for-fun project like this (and maybe not even until quite a bit later), so all I can do is give advice, I can't write the actual program.
Bourse?: 3/1/2012 23:28:52

Tacticus 
Level 28
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Im in, this sounds fun.

Would it not be possible to fix games?
will players involved in the money side be able to play in games?
Bourse?: 3/2/2012 15:54:25

RvW 
Level 46
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|> Would it not be possible to fix games?
will players involved in the money side be able to play in games?

|> 9. Conflict of interest: this is a free market, conflict of interest is permitted. Conflict of interest may indeed even be an advantage.

Buying stock in an opponent you just (secretly) truced with, buying stock in yourself when you know you're about to gain a lot of bonuses next turn, selling stock in yourself when you have a feeling you're gonna be overrun next turn, selling stock in an opponent you are about to decimate, all perfectly legal.
Selling stock in yourself when you're deliberately (and unnecessarily) going to suicide, well, I guess it's legal... :( On the plus side, each person can only do this once, then they're out of the tournament (but not out of the meta-game).
Bourse?: 3/2/2012 16:05:41


{rp} General Mac 
Level 53
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@ Tacticus in my opinion thats all in the fun of the game. besides you have to permit conflict of interest because there is no real way to police it




|> Selling stock in yourself when you're deliberately (and unnecessarily) going to suicide, well, I guess it's legal... :( On the plus side, each person can only do this once, then they're out of the tournament (but not out of the meta-game).

the good thing about this is that you cant make money from doing this only lose it for others

oh...unless you of course bet on the person you know who is killing you.

personnaly i think its all in the fun of the game but if you did want to stop this you could just stop people from betting on games that they are playing in
Bourse?: 3/2/2012 16:05:55


{rp} General Mac 
Level 53
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i cant wait to get this started now :D
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