"And to be honest I've had friends who have been in China/the outlaying countries and when a major health care issue has arisen they have opted to return to the states and receive medical attention."

My buddy has lived and worked in China for the past 5 years. He has all his doctors appointments setup for the few weeks he is back here in the states and plans on returning to have kids since he doesn't trust the doctors and the ancient ways they still use. (His parents are from China so it's not like its racism related or whatnot)

Also I'd like to point out that with the rare exception with schools in England, such as Cambridge/Oxford that college/graduate students decide to come to USA institutions instead of other countries schools.

While I imagine its rare that a student goes abroad for college, I think its worth noting that America is mainly where they come. So we must be doing something right with our educational system, at least at the collegiate/graduate level.

bostonbruins are u trying to make me proud of country am not living in or from.
yes we know you are proud.am not going to try and say my opinions and also a lot of unicorns come to my country to play and graze our countryside must be doing something right.

boston where is your proof on what you said so students might go to american how many is a lot is it 100 and what about stats of other country abroad student.
and also it isn't rare for students to study abroad.

I think this will be my last post in this thread.... I fear continuing this will lead to some sort of flame war.

I don't much mind what you take pride in. If you take pride in your country or not, that is entirely up to you. Though, these unicorns you speak of, where do I find them?

My use of the England schools was just an example of schools that are outside of the US but still people come from all over the world. There are other well regarded schools that I did not mention as well.

Study abroad for a semester isn't uncommon. Students come to the schools I've mentioned as full time students. Not as an american may go to Australia, Spain, or Ireland for a semester for the experience of being in that country instead of solely the academics.

I went to a small liberal arts college. We had over a 100 international students. Something like 10% of the student body. I imagine this is common at well regarded american schools. I don't have any hard stats to put forth, I could very possibly be mistaken. Though I think the fact that students from all over try to come here to go to school, does say something.

FWIW - I don't intend to rub anyone the wrong way, if something I've said has caused insult/harm please don't take it that way. My comments and thoughts are simply my own, and I do take pride in my country.

|> While I imagine its rare that a student goes abroad for college, I think its worth noting that America is mainly where they come.

I'll tell that to all the foreign students we have here... I don't have the numbers for other studies, but in computer science there's almost as many foreign students doing a master's degree as their are Dutch students (no hard data, but it feels like approximately 40% or 50% of the total student population). From the mix of nationalities I see here, it wouldn't surprise me if Japanese students mainly go to the US (as there are very few (none??) here), but we have a huge amount of Indian and Chinese students. And I'm talking the full (two years) master programme here, including quite a few that stay here to get a job. Obviously, we have very few foreign students in the bachelor programmes since currently most of those are still in Dutch (which is changing by the way).

|> Though, these unicorns you speak of, where do I find them?

Well, since he's from the UK, I bet they're having afternoon tea with the Monster of Loch Ness. (You *do* understand sarcasm, both in Iron's and my post, right?)

|> FWIW - I don't intend to rub anyone the wrong way, if something I've said has caused insult/harm please don't take it that way. My comments and thoughts are simply my own, and I do take pride in my country.

I think much of this thread is about non-Americans not understanding why Americans are so (in our opinion) over-the-top proud of the USA. Sure, I guess just about everyone can be proud of something (by the way, no sweat fixing those dikes in New Orleans, it's what we're good at, you're welcome). But there seems to be something different about Americans...
In other countries it seems to be much more common to realize (admit??) your country is far from perfect. For instance, the Netherlands was ridiculously late abolishing slavery, just after WW2 we pulled some pretty nasty crap on Moluccas (basically promising them independence if they helped us keep Indonesia a Dutch colony, which they did, then dropped them like a brick when that plan fell apart) and I could go on for a while.
In this thread, the Americans are mostly explaining what's good and great about the USA, mostly ignoring the not-so-great things.

Or to sum it up really short: the USA has a big impact on the world and "high winds blow on high hills" (I hope that's the correct translation for "hoge bomen vangen veel wind"...).

RVW - Did you understand my comment about unicorns was sarcasm?

Earlier in this thread I made mention that I don't think any country was perfect. That all countries have issues.

I'll end this by saying, that there certainly is bad done here and abroad by the US but i think the good that is done far outweighs the bad.

Here's one more bad thing:
Torturing "terrorists" in the middle-east and Guantanamo Bay. They could have 4 hours of sleep per day, but you may choose to split it up in pieces of ten minutes. They could be waterboarded, and being told they were already betrayed by friends. And a long list of other methodes. Who wouldn't confess in that conditions?

How can you justify that?

|> How can you justify that?

I'm going to say this VERY carefully as to not spread the fire even more, so please don't misinterpret what I say. On September 11, 2001 19 terrorists from Al-Qaeda hijacked 4 passenger airplanes and flew 2 into the Twin Towers, 1 into the Pentagon, and 1 crashed into a field outside of Shanksville, Pennsylvania. Nearly 3000 people died in the attacks, 1100 of them first responders such as firefighters and medical staff.

I personally do not agree without waterboarding myself, and it has been outlawed here in the states (although they still probably use it). However, if I needed to torture 50-60 people in order to save 3000, I'd go right for it.

|> boston where is your proof on what you said so students might go to american how many is a lot is it 100 and what about stats of other country abroad student.
and also it isn't rare for students to study abroad.

"The number of international students at colleges and universities in the United States increased by five percent to 723,277 during the 2010/11 academic year, according to the Open Doors report, which is published annually by the Institute of International Education (IIE) in partnership with the U.S. Department of State’s Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs." - [Quoted from here](http://www.iie.org/Who-We-Are/News-and-Events/Press-Center/Press-Releases/2011/2011-11-14-Open-Doors-International-Students)

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I'm curious as to why there is so much hate when someone makes a [USA] Group thread, but when someone makes a thread looking for Chinese or Polish or Spanish or French players, no one flames them?

I understand where you are coming from Iron Conquerer when you say the USA does more bad then it does good, but you have to look at everything we do, not just what the news says.

Are we full of corrupt politicians? Yes, more then likely. But then I'm sure that some people in the parliament get payed by the big oil companies and corporations.

Is our economics system in the dump? Yes it is, but so is Greece's and so is the world's

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|> Yup. Whenever the UN wants to do something, like stopping the war in Syria (A hundred people die there each day!), the US uses his veto to stop it, even when all other countries vote in favor. - Moros

Assuming the US has 300 million people, the death rate is 6887 per day. At 8.38 deaths/1,000 population (July 2009 est.). 100's of people is small. Before you go acting all smart about things why don't you do you research first? If the US gets yelled at for invading Iraq and trying to stop the war there, wouldn't we do the same thing by invading Syria?

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Soap Box = Off

*With respect to foreign anti-American angst, a simple reply*: The more one becomes part of a system, the more entitled one feels to complain about it. If a foreigner wants to see how Americans complain about America: watch CSPAN's Washington Journal call-in show; read the comments on any major news article; read the opinion section of regional newspapers (all are online). You'll find plenty of complaints.

*Going Dutch*: It seems to me that schools with English instruction (Leiden, EM Lyon, etc.) in non-native English-speaking countries offer English courses *more* (before attacking, please fully consider the implications of this word 'more') as a means to increase enrollment and make a buck: eg, a few years ago The Economist said Master's programs around the world are more and more profit-based.

That said, the Dutch model is a bit of an exception:

- Dutch language: closer to English than any other language (Anglos, Saxons, Jutes came from more or less that area); if an English word's etymology is not French, Latin, or German, it's closest root or cousin word (not necessarily an etymology, but the oldest example of the root word in question) is most likely Dutch (or roughly about 20-35% of English words, based on having read Oxford's Dictionary of Etymology's entries for A through C).
- Netherlands: small country, better English makes Dutch (companies, workers, gov't, etc.) more competitive within the EU (English is an official language), in its region, elsewhere.
- Dutch, English, American history, culture, language, religion, politics, economic models: many similar trends from 1600 to 1800. I study early modern European history, so I'm not too sure about the Dutch experience since 1800, but given the early trajectory, I'd guess the western European welfare state model and the effects of reconstruction (spiritual and material) after the two world wars might be the only major differences between us.
- 'Cousins': lots of Dutch migrants in the US; Anglo-Saxons could be considered 'proto-Dutch'; many Dutch ideas influenced England and America, especially after 1688 (William III didn't trust the English much once he was king of England, and instead had many Dutch advisers; Bank of England based on Dutch models; etc.).

Source: [I am William the Silent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Silent).

It really is quite interesting how much hate there is for America in the rest of the world. Although SE Asia might be an exception, as everyone I have met here LOVES America. To a disgusting extent, such as the love of Justin Beiber and Lady Gaga.

IronHeart, you say you live in the UK, but I assume you are not a native. Otherwise, your point about how great English schools are is laughable.

Iron said once that he was from Kenya... but English is an official language there as well, so that doesn't make his story any more convincing. So Iron, tell us, what's your life story?

Really, it's not suprising. I have seen plenty of native Americans with terrible terrible English, so I guess I am not awed.

|>I'm going to say this VERY carefully as to not spread the fire even more, so please don't misinterpret what I say. |>On September 11, 2001 19 terrorists from Al-Qaeda hijacked 4 passenger airplanes and flew 2 into the Twin Towers, 1 into the Pentagon, and 1 crashed into a field outside of Shanksville, Pennsylvania. |>Nearly 3000 people died in the attacks, 1100 of them first responders such as firefighters and medical staff.

|>I personally do not agree without waterboarding myself, and it has been outlawed here in the states (although they still probably use it). |>However, if I needed to torture 50-60 people in order to save 3000, I'd go right for it.

50-60? Rather thousands and thousands of innocent people! And not only that, in Iraq they even killed civilians and people who surrendered! Have you seen the "Collateral murder" clip?



|>Assuming the US has 300 million people, the death rate is 6887 per day. |>At 8.38 deaths/1,000 population (July 2009 est.). |>100's of people is small. |>Before you go acting all smart about things why don't you do you research first? |>If the US gets yelled at for invading Iraq and trying to stop the war there, wouldn't we do the same thing by invading Syria?

There's a difference between dying from old age or some random disease and dying because you were murdered in an act to protest against the government there! And I'm not saying America should invade it, I'm extremely against the US invading anything. But they won't even let the UN drop food and medical supplies on the people's villages!

Dude, Moros, don't get angry about the US' proud and successful history of invading brown countries! In life, one must play to their strengths, and our strength is invading people. And reality TV.

wat the heck i never said am from kenya

and i never said english schools were great texas also i don't hate the usa

"our"?

I thought you were from China!?

Texasjohn most american programs suck, and dont be proud because america can invade most countrys.

I live in China, but I am 100% Texan til I die!

And what's it mean, "most American programs suck"? Like computer programs? Social programs? Kicking ass programs? 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

|> I personally do not agree without waterboarding myself, and it has been outlawed here in the states (although they still probably use it). However, if I needed to torture 50-60 people in order to save 3000, I'd go right for it.

It doesn't matter if it has been outlawed in the States; US law does not apply in Guantanamo Bay.
Doesn't it shock you that it's outlawed but "they still probably use it"...!?
You're also contradicting yourself, on the one hand you don't agree with it, yet on the other hand you'd "go right for it".
Also, where do you draw the lines? Apart from the obvious "how much torture is okay", who's bad enough to be eligible? Torture 50 to save 3000 is one thing, but what if it's torture 1 to save 1 (example: torture the kidnapper to make him tell you where the victim is locked up before the victim starves to death)? Is that okay as well?

Some other problems with your statement:

- Legalizing torture wouldn't have prevented 9/11, who would you have tortured?
- There's a large amount of people in Guantanamo Bay who are actually innocent. And I don't mean the "innocent until proven guilty" technicality (which could take a while, since indefinite detention without even charging people seems to be okay nowadays), I mean in the "some Afghan dude hates some other guy, so he tells an American soldier the other guy is Taliban and he, how convenient, disappears" way.
- The whole torture-to-save-lives approach is broken: by the time the judicial system finally finishes the last appeal and once-and-for-all establishes someone is in fact a terrorist, any knowledge that guy has is so hopelessly outdated it's probably worthless. So, that means you can only possibly torture people who might be innocent. Sorry to get personal, but that means *you* could get tortured, just because a soldier or intelligence officer screwed up and got the wrong guy. Are you *sure* you still think torture should be legal...?
- The idea behind terrorism is not to kill us all, they want to force us into making decisions (whether that is not invading other countries or implementing an Islamic legal system) we would not otherwise (read: voluntarily) make. That's exactly the same concept behind torture: "We'll make the pain stop as soon as you tell us what we want to know" (versus "We'll stop killing random people as soon as you pull back your soldiers from Afghanistan"). Quite simply, torture is a form of terrorism.
- There's such a thing as human rights. I've always thought it makes absolutely no sense at all for people you take *prisoner* during the *war* on terror not to be considered prisoners of war, but I've never even heard an attempt by US officials to explain why human rights don't apply in Guantanamo Bay.

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The point is that "we" (the Western world) are supposed to be the good guys. We'll have to find and use other ways to gather intelligence and prevent crimes and terrorism. If we give up our freedoms and turn into police states where everyone can "disappear" just for some vague suspicion he might've thought the wrong thing... *they win*!