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Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 16:08:36


NecessaryEagle 
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So I know that this has been brought up a thousand times now, but it's been a while since we've had a formal topic on it. I think that Warlight should have a formal Clan system. This would create another level of competitiveness and enhance the community greatly. Many players enjoy associating themselves with a group or clan. It gives a sense of comradeship and enjoyment to the game and the community as a whole. Others don't like to be identified with a group, they'd rather be a lone-wolf. Both of these and any gray area between is acceptable and a matter of opinion, but with a clan system in place, any level of opinion could be fulfilled without detracting anything from the game. What I'm trying to say is that there would be almost solely benefits, without a downside.

The structure could be pretty simple, and wouldn't take much work compared to some of the more extensive additions people are proposing. This is the basic design I'd personally like to see:

- a clan tab or sub-tab under the Community tab
- a page for registering a clan with restrictions (perhaps a 3-month play minimum?)
- The ability to invite people to the clan
- The ability to ask to join a clan
- A list of clans
- The ability to appoint other admins for the clan
- The ability for the leader or admins to kick members
- Identification
- Clans choose their colors
- The clan's 1-4 letter tag would show in front of the members' names
- Different levels in the clan (leader, admin, member) could have different color that the tag would show up in, dictated by the leader of the clan
- clan matches
- build a template and propose it as a clan-match to another clan
- accept/decline/counter-proposal options for that clan
- the game is made once someone accepts the design
- all members from the two clans could see the game and join
- a chat box on the clan's page that only clan-members could see/use
- a clan profile page listing members, records against other clans, and possibly rankings?
- also could be a member-only function

So let me know what you guys think of my ideas and any changes or additions you think should be made to the list.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 16:20:31


Richard Sharpe 
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No thanks.

Far better things for Fizzer to focus on, namely the leading UserVoice entrants.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 16:24:35


{rp} General Mac 
Level 53
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im not in a clan and at the moment i have no desire to be in one. If however there were some organised system where people could join and play large group game against other clans then i would definitely be interested. I think this sort of gaming and banter could be a lot of fun.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 16:24:46


NecessaryEagle 
Level 56
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So do you have any real reasoning or.......anything other than just "I don't like clans so anyone having them is bad"? Because this is basically what I'm hearing from a lot of people.

This is a fairly simple infrastructure, and it wouldn't take that much dedication to make. I realize he's focusing on the Android/iPhone clients atm, but this could be the next project no?
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 16:28:00


NecessaryEagle 
Level 56
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@General: we do that already, just don't have an infrastructure. REGL and WM constantly play games with/against each other. We're basically rivals but always friendly with each other even when we're bragging and such. It's always a lot of fun when we get together. I'd love to see more clans come out and get bigger so that there would be even more of this competitiveness :D you should come check us out sometime, we'd love to have you. As you said though, I'd love to see a more formal system to make games as challenges against other clans, it would make it that much more fun.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 16:38:26


Richard Sharpe 
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Seems to me the next project should be one the majority of users have pushed for, not something that a select few desire.

Were a clan structure a leading topic on the UserVoice then I would be all in favor of it being implemented. Last I looked though there was no such topic atop the voting list and as such it doesn't merit attention in my eyes. After all, it makes sense that Fizzer's limited time and attention be given to those improvements and amendments that the majority desire.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 16:43:31


NecessaryEagle 
Level 56
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Many of the things atop the list, Fizzer doesn't want to do anyway, so that's not a perfect identification of what should or should not be done. Second, the uservoice for leagues (which includes clans) is up to like 90 votes, which is pretty high.

Another problem with the votes on UV is that there are hundreds of votes still tied up in things that have already been implemented or in the iPhone/Android app sections, which we know will be implemented regardless of how many votes they currently have.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 16:46:25

The Duke of Ben 
Level 55
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Eagle, you say that you already do the things that you want from a clan, even with any kind of structure in the game code.

Is your complaint that there can be people who put REGL or WM in front of their names without asking you? Do you feel that more people would join clans and make fun clan wars if it were official?

I've never had trouble finding fun games, even without being in a clan. I guess you could have some higher level team games with clans, but anything 3v3 or less seems to already have a competitive scene, some of which are officially recognized by Warlight.

I'm not sure if 12 v 12 competitive games is a high priority for anyone, but more importantly, you can already do that without changing the code at all.

I guess what I am saying, and Richard Sharpe seems to be saying as well, is why should Fizzer put any effort into this at all, considering that no new functions will be added to the game? It's just an organizational tool that isn't required for doing the things you already do.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 16:46:29


{rp} General Mac 
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@EagleBlast yes i understand that REGL and WM play many games together but the thought of 2 clans playing against each other all the time doent really thrill me to much to be honest. Thats why i would like to see your idea implemented as im sure it would spawn a lot more clans. Thats when the real fun would start :)
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 16:49:43


Richard Sharpe 
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Those 90 votes make it the 14th most popular topic. Thus, it only merits attention after the 13 head of it have been addressed.

I don't pretend to know Fizzer's mind so I won't speak to his interest, or lack thereof, on certain UV options. However, he seems like a smart enough guy so if he were not interested in the implementations described by those 13 UV's then I would assume he would state as such, close the topic and free up the votes.

As I said above, I have zero interest in the idea and think that attention should be given to those higher on the UV list than this topic. After all, what is the point of UV if not this very situation? To determine user demand and act accordingly.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 16:56:04


NecessaryEagle 
Level 56
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Having a structured system in place would encourage the implementation of new clans, get more people interested in them, and give them validation.

It would also get rid of the possibility of people "pretending" to be in a clan as you say, but that's not one of the main reasons for this, only the reason I proposed the colored tags in front of people's names instead of just white.

You say that it wouldn't add any functionality, but it could give stats about the clan, rosters, history of clan matches, and other functional additions to the game that are based around the interaction of different clans with each other.

Yes it's always easy to find fun games, but in my experience it's more fun when playing with people you can identify with, especially because it's someone you know you can trust and communicate with easily.

It would give a more competitive edge to some games while not detracting from those who choose not to use the system. The competitive games is not a point to make huge games but more to have them identified as official clan matches between specific clans and have a record of those games.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 17:03:02


Richard Sharpe 
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"while not detracting from those who choose not to use the system."

That is debatable. More clans means more members meaning higher chance of unfair or unbalanced FFAs. A few members of clans which are 'allies' in an FFA could greatly impact the outcome of the game adversely for non-members. I grant you that this can already happen but making such a formal structure would only exacerbate the situation.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 17:08:33


{rp} Clavicus Vile 
Level 55
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I think having a formal-clan system with rankings and stats would be a nice addition. In my opinion it'd strengthen the community and make Warlight a better place overall.

Having open-seat prerequisities just for certain clans to facilitate the formal system with clan matches would be fun too.

Saying this, I have no interest in shoving any tag infront of my name, and would avoid joining a clan if it was forced upon me, either by it's rules or the game-system itself.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 17:10:01


NecessaryEagle 
Level 56
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First, uservoice does not make this a Democracy, it's just to give Fizzer a general idea of some functions that users support. I also don't mean to speak for him, that wasn't my intention. I was simply using reason to determine my assumption of his intentions. Take a look at the 13 above this:

- peace treaties- a huge gameplay change that was suggested and added well over a year ago, that seemingly has gotten no support from Fizzer, and has not been implemented or accepted

- Able to see who's online- Useless compared to the Global PM option just below it on the list

- Global PM- a great idea IMHO, but still has been proposed over and over and still never even hinted at implementation

- Allow teams to receive armies when the team collectively controls a bonus- a huge gameplay change just like the top idea, making it hard to implement and IMHO doesn't make a lot of sense in my opinion becuase it defeats the point of having seperate amounts of troops per turn from your team mates.

- Anonymous Games- a cool idea, but kinda silly as there are always ways to find out whom it is you're playing against and would also be hard to implement

- Android client- already accepted and being worked on, so useless at this point

- Achievements- kinda already done with the whole "Single Player" games showing up on your page and your profile showing your stats....not sure what other Achievements would be necessary or usefull

- Highligh non-standard game settings- not sure why this is even still there seeing as it's already been implemented....

- iPhone client- Ditto Android

- Identify players by their country with a flag next to their name- kinda cool, and easy to do for the most point, but wouldn't add much to the game, no new functionality at least, and some players don't want to identify where they're from to the rest of the gamers

- Ability to make and save notes on player.- seems like a mess to implement, and would take a lot of space, and not really useful in-game either. If you like someone add them to your invite list, if you dislike them black-list them. If you don't know who someone is by seeing their name, you probably don't care enough to write a paragraph about them instead of playing the game.

- Add a "friends list" subset to the invite list- also kinda silly, but easy to implement, and not really that useful. if you're friends....you should know how to find them anyway.


I don't see anything there that's really better than the clan system, adds more functionality, or is more worth Fizzer's time. And many of those have been around for a long time without any indication that Fizzer supports them or will implement them at any time.

-
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 17:13:04


NecessaryEagle 
Level 56
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and as to the unfairness of clan-members being in FFAs, this has been discussed before.

1- don't join those games then
2- I don't speak for others, but REGL members would rather have bragging rights for beating each other than teaming up unfairly
3- have you ever had clan-members gang up against you?
4- I think there's a better chance of two friends without a tag identifying them as such teaming up against you (especially with PMs) than clan-members who you know are together doing the same
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 17:14:57


NecessaryEagle 
Level 56
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@Franco: that could be an option, some clans could choose to not have a tag, only display tags in clan-matches, or give users the option to hide theirs. I kinda like that idea as it gives more customization without much work on Fizzer's part and more member-freedom.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 17:16:58


Richard Sharpe 
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Here's the thing though...

YOU don't see anything there that's better than clans. But the majority of WL users who want their voices heard obviously do see those items as more important. If they didn't, the clans/leagues topic would clearly have far more votes.

Also, while it may not be a democracy, why institute a system such as UV only to completely ignore the results? Doesn't make much sense, does it?

(I am also amused that you speak of the other topics being up there for a long time while ignoring the fact that the league topic has been up for just as long but has far less support)
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 17:18:33


Mablung
Level 55
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one suggestion eagle, how about creating the clan infrastructure outside of warlight?

console based clans (like xbox/playstation) go through MLG (major league gaming). It actually worked out quite well when i was in call of duty/rainbow six clans.

now im not saying you should use an particular existing system, but rather someone could create a website for this. Fizzer has enough on his plate, and im sure you can find someone who is in a warlight clan who can make a website.

and i know someone is going to mention: "but...uh uh....how are they going to operate together?" the simple answer is that they don't have to operate together. Anyone can put a clan tag in front of their name, but only actual clan members will be registered on this (hypothetical) clan website. (the clan leader being the one controlling the team members)

this actually could replace the idea of the 3v3 euro ladder. I mean that if this system were in place, everyone could just create clans and compete against each other on a 3v3 euro league supported by this website. Instead of whatever system the ladders have, it would be literal team records (wins and loses) and then playoffs whenever the leagues end (ultimate bragging rights).





...this of course would take a lot of time to create and maintain by someone, and fizzer would have to put the green light on it.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 17:23:15


Mablung
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the only reason i posted ^ is because Fizzer clearly has other things to focus on (as you two have clearly debated about) and this would be an alternative
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 17:27:38


NecessaryEagle 
Level 56
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@mablung: I have made a free site for REGL that has such a list of official members and discussion of clan-matches and such. The problem is, it's limited and sloppy at best. To make it better, you'd have to make an actual paid-site, for which I don't have the money to support. I'm adept at site creation and maintenance, but am also in College and don't have the time to deal with it. If it was inbedded in the WL site it would be much easier, cost no money, and need almost 0 maintenance once it's implemented.

@Sharpe: What I'm saying is that I think it's more important than any of those 13 that havn't already been implemented. I'm also saying (not just an opinion) that it adds more functionality than many of them, and is easier to implement than most of them as it wouldn't take much coding, mostly site-design which is easier and less time consuming than changing the in-game functionality of the game.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful of anyone else's ideas, just giving my genuine opinion, you're also entitled to your own. If you don't like my proposed clan system, that's fine, but give a good reason instead of just hating because it's something you don't plan on using.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 17:34:48


Richard Sharpe 
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I did give a reason... for one, I don't trust the clans impact on non-members for FFA's and other multiplayer games. I'm sure plenty of you would be honorable and not let the clan affiliations interfere but there are enough that wouldn't so as to pose a problem and impact game outcomes and enjoyment.

And I haven't been 'hating' because it's something I don't plan to use... I have been 'hating' because I think the other higher-voted topics merit attention before this. Had you been advocating the 18th ranked option I would say that the leagues UV merited attention first due to its higher vote total. I would have this stance even if you were advocating something I had voted for on UV.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 17:40:46


{rp} Clavicus Vile 
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Richard: The topic is to discuss this idea. Whether there are other idea's you think more people want is irrelevant. Lets discuss this idea for it's merits and drawbacks and leave everything else to Fizzer.

So, other than clans impacting FFA matches (which can already happen, regardless of the system) what other drawbacks are there to having this system?
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 17:41:07


NecessaryEagle 
Level 56
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What it comes down to though, is that UV is not absolute. Fizzer has implemented low-vote options because he doesn't like them, added hundreds of functions that were never on uservoice, and ignored many in the top ranks of the UV list. I believe (not 100% but I remember this from somewhere) that Fizzer has said in the past that he doesn't want the game to just become a "user-controlled" setup, because it's a recipe for failure. That's why he calls UV "Feedback" and not "vote for what will be implemented"

in other words, UV is meant to be proposals from players, not a system for players to implement what they want. He listens to feedback but in the end it's his game not ours. I'm not telling him to implement clans, just giving my opinion and looking for some feedback from the community on my more specific ideas for the clan setup.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 18:18:59

dagorin
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@Richard: The FFA impact would wind up being lessened if you could identify the clans doing it by not joining games with them, which is a lot easier than trying to identify individuals doing it, so I fail to see why you are so opposed to the clan system.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 18:31:06


Richard Sharpe 
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And if the clan members join en masse (or individually) after I have joined the game? What option do I have then?

There is also the impact on tournaments. I, for one, am not big on tournaments but they are certainly popular. Now consider that individuals may act differently in a tournament setting to ensure that one of their clan is the winner of any game and thus ensures the clan's success. Thus the best player doesn't win but the most popular one does.

And yes, these issues can already arise. However, an increase in clans and members makes these issues more prominent.


Add in the fact that any game I have played in the past with a strong clan/league presence have usually become less enjoyable due to them. My interest in those games wane in large part due to the clan wars and inevitable bragging and complaints that come along with them. While I may not be the standard, I am sure there are plenty others like me in this respect.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 18:35:48


NecessaryEagle 
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Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but IMHO, games with clan-members are not much different than ones without. On top of that, REGL isn't a very competitive clan, more casual unless it comes to clan-matches. in tournaments, most clans try to play together on teams anyway. Most tournaments are usually 1v1 or XvX anyway, so you can't really help anyone but yourself win...unless it's a game between two clan-only teams, in which case one will win regardless. In the case of REGL at least, as I've said, we'd rather beat each other than strangers.

I've actually found that in FFAs with clan members I tend to team up with someone else from the game to attack my clan-mate becuase it's more fun.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 18:50:21


NecessaryEagle 
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Yo Rich!

If you're so against clans why'd you join this game?

http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer.aspx?GameID=1965320

Interesting
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 18:51:34


Richard Sharpe 
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Again, just because you are honorable in handling it doesn't mean that all will be. I think everyone has seen deceptive or underhanded practices on here so why would those be limited to outside the clans?

Another issue is that having such a forum would negate the FFAs where PMs have been turned off. Clan members will be given an unfair advantage in any non-PM FFA due to this.
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 18:52:05


NecessaryEagle 
Level 56
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sry, wrong game ^ please disregard that comment
Clans/Factions/identification: 1/18/2012 18:52:10


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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I joined that game? That's news to me...
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