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Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/17/2011 13:18:52


Domenico
Level 16
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Version 2.2 of The Netherlands Map is now pending public.
I hope it's an improvement of the original map. At least I know it is topographically speaking.
In the testing games I found out I'd weakened Flevoland a tad too much, so I corrected that.
Please tell me how you think I can improve on it even more.
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/17/2011 18:39:00


Moros 
Level 50
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V2.2? What was the first edit?
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/17/2011 21:35:16

RvW 
Level 46
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Did you fix all the missing connections? ;)

It's not that I don't understand some slipped through, it's just very frustrating to invent a brilliant battle plan that completely falls apart when you try to move armies over a connection that suddenly decides to be missing. (Especially if you already knew about it but forgot... yes, that's happened a few times. :s )

And, thank you for the update, it's much appreciated!
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/18/2011 00:33:40

RvW 
Level 46
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@Moros:
Version 1.2 (uploaded December 17th, 2011), adds additional mini-bonuses; the thirteen capitals (twelve provinces + national) are now worth one army apiece (they've also been excluded from their respective "half-province" bonuses). Not sure if other changes have been made; didn't notice anything in the two seconds I looked at it. :p
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/18/2011 00:47:36

RvW 
Level 46
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(I should really get used to not being able to edit my posts here; think first, say everything I have to say, *then* hit reply...)

Also, some of the bonuses have been rearranged. "Strandplaatsen" disappeared and was fused with "can't-remember-its-original-name" into "Noord-Hollandse Kust". The three bonuses in Noord-Brabant are now called "Den Bosch", "Eindhoven" and "West-Brabant" (previously, one of them was called "Noord-Brabant", even though it only covered approximately one third of the province). The "Utrecht" bonus was split into two parts "West-Utrecht" and "Oost-Utrecht" (and, of course, "Utrecht" (as in, the city) itself, since it's a capital, but that's part of the other change I mentioned). I think there's been a change to "Haaglanden", but without access to the old version to compare it against, I'm not entirely sure. I bet similar changes have been made in other parts of the map.

And, to sort-of answer my own question, at least in 1.2 there's definitely still a few missing connections. :(
@Domenico: once 2.2 goes live I'll let you know if I find any connections issues there; it seems rather pointless to still bug you about 1.2 when 2.2 has already been submitted, right?
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/19/2011 14:12:37


Domenico
Level 16
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Looks like what I'd dubbed 2.2 has been renamed 1.2 by Warlight. Weird... :-/
So please tell me about the missing connections you saw. I thought I'd fixed them, but I might be wrong.
Indeed, I rearranged a lot of bonuses.
First of all, I corrected the topographical mishaps. Utrecht got back its real shape and e.g. Schiermonnikoog and Hattem were put into the right province.
This is also main reason the Strandplaatsen Bonus dissolved; it was cut in half by the border between the two Hollands.

Let's look at all the provinces:

+ The two Drenther Bonuses were too small, so I fused them into Drenthe.
+ Groningen lost Schiermonnikoog to its rightful owner, Friesland, and the former Groningen Bonus was renamed, since it only covered the south of *Grönnen*.
+ Friesland's south also lacked this prefix. Also, two formerly southern territories are now part of the northern bonus.
+ Flevoland didn't change much. It's its value that took a beating. No wonder considering its size.
+ Overijssel only lost Hattem, which was even misspelled, to Gelderland.
+ Zeeland also hardly changed.
+ Limburg took back Mook en Middelaar from Noord-Brabant, bringing back the real tail shape.
+ Brabant lost Mook en Middelaar and Gorinchem, but got back Lith, and West-Brabant got its proper name.
+ Gelderland, apart from gaining Hattem and surrendering Lith, has been given Culemborg, but the Veluwe Bonus lost Renswoude, Veenendaal, and Rhenen to Oost-Utrecht.
+ Now for the fun part! Utrecht used to be a mishandled blot in the center, but by dropping Zederik, Leerdam, and Culemborg, and by picking up the Veluwe triplet plus the Gooisch Loenen, Eemnes, Bunschoten, and the Amsterdammer Ronde Venen, it's back in its old shape. Then it split into West and East.
+ North-Holland rightly took back Zandvoort and Bloemendaal, but the Amsterdammer and Gooische Bonus gravely trespassed into South-Holland and Utrecht, so they lost Kaag en Braassem, Alphen a/d Rijn, Nieuwkoop, and Ronde Venen, and Loenen, Eemnes, and Bunschoten. After Diemen had left the Gooi for Amsterdam and the Municipality Amsterdam had become a bonus of its own, the Amsterdammer Bonus was in dire need of a little body, so the Saenre Bonus dissolved into Amsterdam, making it correspond roughly to the actual city region. Also, I gave the coast, which had been given the province's name, a more proper name.
+ The Zuid-Holland Bonus was too small for its name and too big for this game, so it's been divided into a part on the shores of what's apparently called the Haringvliet and a piece of land that, lacking a distinct town or feature, has been named Oost-Zuid-Holland. The remnants of Strandplaatsen, the Amsterdammer forfeits, the Den Haag Bonus, and Westland, a former Rotterdam territory, fused into a new bonus which is called, but in no way corresponds to, Haaglanden.

That, plus bonus value and connection reviews are all the changes I've made.
I've already seen one more misspelled territory name.
I'll let you guess. Hint: You can see directly in the name there's a mistake.
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/19/2011 14:53:58

Sewerrat
Level 3
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Here are some missing connections i found:
(i also send you feedback, but i'm not sure if you use a proper account for that)

Missing connections:
Reimerswaal - Tholen
Eindhoven - Oirschot
Eindhoven - Eersel
Nuenen, Gerwen en Nederwetten - Gelrop - Mierlo (Gelrop should be Geldrop)
Boxtel - Vught
West maas en waal - Maasdriel
Ede - Rhenen
Graafstroom - Alblasserdam

Point connections (i think this should be connections):
Nederlek en Rotterdam
Krimpen en Zuidplas
Capelle en Ouderkerk
Noordwijk en Bloemendaal
Wieringen en Anna Paulowna


If you are going to play this map i would be happy to join.
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/19/2011 19:35:07


Domenico
Level 16
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Well, I just checked and didn't see your feedback. Could you try again?
Could everyone also have a look at the bonus values? For most of the bonuses, I used Bytjie's formula, but perhaps some values need to be altered.
I plan to work on the map and publish v1.3 in 2012.
Do you think I should add provincial bonuses? (In which case I'll have to redivide Drenthe.)
And do you think the cities should be part of "their" bonuses?
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/19/2011 19:47:11


Moros 
Level 50
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Okay, I already didn't quite understand why you should exclude capitals from the provinces, this isn't Germany where you have Kreisfreie Städte.
I think you should add provincial bonuses, but you don't need to divide Drenthe, Zeeland or Flevoland, Maybe make them a little higher bonus value and you're done!
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/19/2011 19:55:48


Domenico
Level 16
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I looked at the connections now. Thanks for telling about them.

I've found that Rotterdam and Nederlek don't adjoin, nor do Krimpen (a/d IJssel) and Zuidplas.
Even though Capelle and Ouderkerk don't connect either, it follows from the previous statement that these territories must connect. Probably, there's a lake in between the four in reality, but since this doesn't show in the map, I'll have to make one of the pairs connect.
Again, Bloemendaal and Noordwijk don't connect.
I'm not sure how you saw Anna Paulowna and Wieringen connect.
I hope I've solved all the connection problems now.
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/19/2011 20:17:32


Domenico
Level 16
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Replying to Moros now:
So I suppose you think they should be re-integrated? Indeed, we don't really have city states, but I sort of wanted to highlight them. I guess the distribution mode already did the trick, but I just wanted to try.
If I add provincial bonuses, I do think I need another bonus for these small provinces, however stupid it may look. In this case, I'll have to exclude the cities from the normal bonuses in order for the provincial bonuses to have any function. Probably, Flevoland, Drenthe, and Zeeland would get a provincial bonus of 1 or 2.
By the way, in v1.3, Koggenland will be part of West-Friesland instead of Amsterdam.

Geldrop was, by the way, not the misspelled municipality I was talking about, but well found anyhow.
I'll give you another hint: there's a mistake in the pronoun's abbreviation. Well, I can't make it any easier than that.
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/20/2011 12:57:47

Sewerrat
Level 3
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I like the highlighting of province capitals. I don't think the capitals of the provinces have to be included in an other bonus in that province.

And i think there should be a bonus for having the complete province (all bonusses + capital)

@ Domenico, i'm not sure how the send feedback button works, but that is what i used.
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/22/2011 12:40:29

RvW 
Level 46
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Misspelled territory name:
St. Michelsgestel -> St. Mich **i** elsgestel
Vucht -> Vu **g** ht
(Both of them are near Den Bosch)
Gelrop-Mierlo -> Gel **d** rop-Mierlo
(Near Eindhoven)

Missing connection:
Leeuwarderadeel <--> Menaldumadeel
Either Eindhoven <--> Heeze-Leende or Waalre <--> Geldrop-Mierlo (if you could move the bonus square a little (maybe on the "corner" in the Eindhoven/Veldhoven border?), that would be great too)


As for adding provincial bonuses: be sure to give them a relatively low value! For instance, if you'd add a Utrecht bonus of 25 (doesn't seem unreasonable), someone holding all of Utrecht will get 25 + 10 + 10 + 1 = 46 reinforcements; by definition, they also hold East-Utrecht, West-Utrecht and the city. So, I'd say a Utrecht bonus (on top of the two halves) should be worth at most 5, but maybe 3 would be better.

Speaking of Utrecht, it's a perfect illustration of why it's good to not include the capitol city in the bonus. Also, I agree with Moros; just because some (big) provinces have sub-bonuses doesn't mean all of them have to. Take a look at (Moros' ;) ) Canada Big; some of the "provinces" are subdivided into smaller bonuses, but not all of them.

I send a list with a lot of missing connections to the original author, but well... I used the feedback button for that, so I don't have a copy of that list anymore. :(
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/22/2011 16:27:28


Domenico
Level 16
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Please just post it here if you happen to find it again. I didn't get an e-mail, so it must've been sent to the original creator.
As for the names, I'd already corrected Vught and Geldrop and I've corrected Sint-Michielsgestel as well. I've also corrected some Frisian municipalities' names and connections.
I've also corrected the Eindhoven connection you were talking about; it was Eindhoven <--> Heeze-Leende. I'll see if I can find a better place to put the bonus square.

As for the provincial bonuses, I do want to give all the provinces a meta-bonus.
As for the values, I must admit I hadn't looked really well at that yet, I just divided the amount of territories by 7. I was planning to take a better look at it while testing v1.3. I'll certainly invite you, Sewerrat and Moros.
But in the meanwhile, if you have suggestions, here is the list of values so far:

+ Noord-Holland = 9 *(62 territories / total bonus = 53)*
+ Zuid-Holland = 10 *(73 / 65)*
+ Utrecht = 4 *(28 / 25)*
+ Zeeland = 2 *(13 / 11)*
+ Noord-Brabant = 10 *(68 / 55)*
+ Limburg = 5 *(34 / 26)*
+ Gelderland = 8 *(56 / 48)*
+ Overijssel = 4 *(25 / 22)*
+ Flevoland = 1 *(6 / 5)*
+ Drenthe = 2 *(12 / 14)* (The regular Drenthe Bonus is definitely overrated)
+ Groningen = 3 *(23 / 22)*
+ Friesland = 4 *(31 / 27)*
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/23/2011 16:31:37


Domenico
Level 16
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Looks like the map is already slightly outdated as well. Some municipalities have merged, most notably five Frisian ones that merged into Súdwest-Fryslân.
Also, four municipalities in West-Friesland (which is not in Friesland) will be merging into Hollands Kroon.
Do you guys think I should use the 2012 division?
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/23/2011 17:01:37


Moros 
Level 50
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I think you should do it, but also re-divide the bonuses. For example: I think you should make a new bonus in Noord-Holland, that includes the communes Andijk, Anna Paulowna, Den Helder, Drechterland, Enkhuizen, Harenkarspel, Heerhugowaard, Hoorn, Koggenland, Langedijk, Medemblik, Niedorp, Opmeer, Schagen, Stede Broec, Texel, Wervershoof, Wieringen, Wieringermeer and Zijpe, because that's accurate since there is a partnership between those communes in real life, and call it Kop van Noord-Holland, to avoid confusion with Friesland.
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/23/2011 18:48:39


Domenico
Level 16
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Well, for now I went ahead and made a v1.4 with the current bonuses. I allotted Súdwest-Fryslân to Zuid-Friesland and Hollandse Kroon to West-Friesland. I must say that Noord-Holland and Friesland's values dropped significantly.

I will probably make such a Kop Bonus, but first I want to test the map with the provincial bonuses (1.3), then this 1.4 with the new divisions, and I also want to spend some time on my other project. Plus I want to try to make the publishing of the map a New Year's occasion, so it's time for a little *contre-le-montre*.
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/23/2011 19:06:17


Moros 
Level 50
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Against your watch?
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/23/2011 19:54:47


Domenico
Level 16
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*Against **the** watch.*

I do hope you could deduce that this meant *a race against time*, but in French you say against the watch...
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/23/2011 23:35:28


Moros 
Level 50
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French was never my strongest point :)
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/24/2011 10:07:00


Domenico
Level 16
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By the way, I just saw that a Netherlands Small Map was uploaded by, if I'm not mistaken, the original creator of this map.
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/24/2011 10:34:39


Moros 
Level 50
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Yup, and I have no idea why he made those ridiculous borders... I think he got an svg file, and just moved the provinces apart.
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/24/2011 10:37:52


Moros 
Level 50
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And he again placed Schiermonnikoog under Frisian control...
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/24/2011 10:41:52


Moros 
Level 50
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LOL! I thought Schiermonnikoog was from Groningen, but I just looked it up...
Netherlands Map v2.2: 12/27/2011 07:00:13

RvW 
Level 46
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Domenico, Moros,


Just saw the invite email and nudge you both sent me. My Internet access is problematic at the moment (router broke) so until the second week of 2012 (I'm celebrating New Year abroad) I can't be of any help, sorry. :(
Netherlands Map v2.2: 1/3/2012 16:09:29


Domenico
Level 16
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Okay, the definitive version is now online.
As you'll see, I have abolished the Midden-Gelderland Bonus and divided West-Brabant into a new West-Brabant plus a rough imitation of the Breda-Tilburg region, which also gained some formerly Bossche and Eindhovense territories.
Also, I have further devalued the regular Flevoland Bonus and the Gooi Bonus.

I hope the map is now done, but if you do find any mistakes, do tell me.
If it's something like a missing connection or a grave bonus value error, I'll correct the map and re-upload it in February.
If there are no urgently needed corrections, I'll wait till next year, when there will be municipal redivisions again.
Netherlands Map v2.2: 1/3/2012 20:16:51


Domenico
Level 16
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Here's the first connection error:

+ Sint-Michielsgestel -- Sint-Oedenrode

And so there will be an update in February...
Netherlands Map v2.2: 1/8/2012 00:21:41

RvW 
Level 46
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Zwijndrecht <--> Barendrecht
Sorry :(
Netherlands Map v2.2: 1/8/2012 10:33:14


Domenico
Level 16
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That's alright. I should have been able to see that. I do hope it'll be solved by February.
I wish I was somehow able to see the graph alone.
Netherlands Map v2.2: 1/8/2012 23:28:57

RvW 
Level 46
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This is a bit of work, your choice whether you want to put in all the effort.

You could ask Matma if he can make a version of his connection utility that doesn't talk to the WL server and only works on a local SVG file; just to spit out a list of connections which should exist. I'm unsure how Matma's tool handles territories which are only touching with a corner (the *Netherlands (Big)* map has a few of those). Also, there's a bunch of very weirdly-shaped territories (such as Den Haag) which it might not handle well. However, by and large, it should give you a nearly-accurate list of connections.

You can (ab)use the [Query game API](http://wiki.warlight.net/index.php/Query_game_API) to get a list of actually existing connections (the map editing APIs are limited to setting connections, they can't query). Downside is it only works for finished ladder and tournament games (not simply maps; that's what you get with a *Query **game** API*), so you'll need the ID of a tournament game on this map. (Alternatively, ask Fizzer if he'd consider adding an API. Another alternative is to ask Fizzer to, just this once, dump the connection list from the database manually.)

Then, it's a matter of normalizing the format, sorting it and running a diff. That gives you a list of connections which (probably) should be added and some which Matma's tool didn't expect (careful, that will include things such as Enkhuizen <--> Lelystad!). However, with any amount of luck, both lists are very short and can simply be processed by hand, effectively making it two lists of "double check these manually".

If you think this is a good idea, but you don't have time:

- I don't mind talking to Matma, but his code is written in a language (Ruby) which I don't speak, so it'll still be a matter of whether he wants to write it. Also, I obviously don't have the SVG file which is needed as input (which is of course easy enough to fix, with your permission).
- I doubt Fizzer would want to bother writing another API (which would have very little practical use other than this special case), so that leaves us which either looking for a tournament played on (the newest version of!) this map, or asking Fizzer to dump the connections manually.
I've only played single player so far (I can't promise opponents I'll have time to finish a game), so I have no experience with tournaments. Asking Fizzer is simply writing an email, which would make a lot more sense if it was sent by the maintainer of the map.
- If you can get the raw data, I don't mind doing the processing though. There's one practical problem though: the last week of January and the first of February are called "Exam period" here, so I can almost promise you I'd miss your February deadline...
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