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Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/29/2011 20:16:51


gilgamesz 
Level 16
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I've recentely came up with a game variant/set-up which might be advantageous to the players and the community.

The settings are identical with ladder 1v1 games with the crucial difference that both players get 1 SANCTIONS CARD(40%,1000 turns) at the very start of the game.

The Rookie plays the Sanctions card at the very beginning.

The Vet **pledges** to either never play the Sanctions card or he chooses AT THE START of the game in which turn he is going to use it and informs the Rookie about it.

I suppose the role of the Rookie can take anyone with less than 100 1v1 games and a feeling that he is a rookie.
The Vet should be someone who can hold his own against the top 10 ladder players.

This game setup is thought as a possibility for players with highly unequal skills to have fun playing each other. It will also help to bridge the gap between the newcomers and the Veterans which will be good for the community. As a extra bonus we might watch extraordinary games where brutal strenght fights stellar skill ( think along the lines of MIKE TYSON versus BRUCE LEE )

Until now I've played only one game with this settings : [BabyPossum v gilgamesz](http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer.aspx?GameID=1724496) and I had lots of fun.

I will take the liberty and I will set up games with this settings and send invitations to some players - hope they will not mind and join.
If possible please post some of those games in this thread so that we all can have a look.
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/29/2011 20:22:21


gilgamesz 
Level 16
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This is the template for this variant : [template](http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer.aspx?TemplateID=131270)
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/29/2011 20:52:02


Moros 
Level 50
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I'm a rookie!
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/29/2011 21:31:58


gilgamesz 
Level 16
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It seems that I have made a mistake writing about not playing the card at all by the vet, as an option. This is obviousely ( as pointed out by many) a suicide mission. For the game to be fun and for the Rookie to learn, the vet needs to play his SC card in first 10 turns.
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/29/2011 21:32:17

emoose 
Level 3
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I would consider myself a rookie, but though I like the concept, 40% seems a bit too much. 10-20% maybe? Personally I don't have fun in any game where one player is easily dominating, regardless of whether or not it's myself.
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/29/2011 21:35:23


gilgamesz 
Level 16
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Which turn he pledges to play the SC card depends on his assesment how good the rookie might actually be, how much time he has ( the later he plays the SC card , the more time he might need to outplay/teach by playing the rookie) and other factors.
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/29/2011 21:39:31


gilgamesz 
Level 16
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@ emoose :
believe me the vets are really good and Warlight is a game of skill. I am sure that if lets say Impaller or Troll play the SC card in turn 3 against a rookie with less than 30 games they will win every time. I mean it : EVERY TIME
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/29/2011 21:45:47


gilgamesz 
Level 16
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Look at this game: http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer.aspx?GameID=1724496

I am not a vet, if anything I am a halfvet :-)

I've played the SC card in turn 10, was tired, played till turn 9 real time ( not my speciallity ) played against quite a good rookie and I still had a shot at victory !
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/29/2011 22:30:31

RvW 
Level 46
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Is there a special reason why you don't just use a sanctions card for, let's say, 10 turns? The veteran discards it immediately (no sense having it count against his/her hand limit), the rookie plays it immediately. That way, after 10 turns, it's a fair fight again, with far less hassle than the 1000-turn approach you suggested.
Also (and I'm not sure how relevant this is, but might as well mention it), when the sanctions card wears off, both players will be playing with "normal" amounts of armies, instead of severely restricted numbers. Fighting with approximately normal numbers might be better (at least, more relevant) practice, don't you think?
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/29/2011 23:02:37


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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I agree with RvW in this aspect.. the sanctions card should be used to stunt the vets initial growth, since many vets can maximize their approach.. but having the solution just be to stunt the usefulness of individual bonuses will get rookies used to playing in a manner which is not common in warlight, and could in fact be a hurtful experience for their warlight career
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 00:16:23


gilgamesz 
Level 16
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@RvW:
I was aiming at a template which a vet could use with open seats and customize after learning who is his opponent ( e.g. "X" with 5 multiplayer games and level 1 single player - the vet plays SC card in turn 12; "Y" with 95 games and crazy done in single player - the vet plays SC card in turn 3)

Late customization and easiness to use it with open seats , that was my goal.
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 00:20:01


Ruthless 
Level 36
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[http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer.aspx?GameID=1757928](http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer.aspx?GameID=1757928)

Here's another game that just played out. I did a turn 7 sanction and I barely squeezed out the win.
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 00:33:14


gilgamesz 
Level 16
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I think the game would be longer if it was not played in real time - thats where the gap in skill might be even slightely bigger.
Very good match and although Baby Possum lost, he was really good for a new player playing against a legend. The other thing is that with game like that, rookies can see and test game mechanics in later stages of the game, around turn 10-15 whereas without the use of SC card the rookie is destroyed almost at the very start.

Thank you very much for playing guys, congratulations to Ruthless for winning and best wishes to BabyPossum to use the gained experience to destroy some duchebag me and him know :-D
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 01:04:25

emoose 
Level 3
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@gilgamesz: well, I joined one you invited The Impaller to, so I'll see first-hand how true that is.

Also, I can agree with the people saying it's better to tailor the duration of the SC instead, just that that would require the vet altering the card settings based on the rookie that joins, which doesn't really work if the rookie is joining an open seat.
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 01:25:11


gilgamesz 
Level 16
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Lets hope Impaller is not busy and accepts the invitation. I am curious though which turn would/will he pledge to play the SC card against you , **with the aim to make the game as balanced and as long as possible ...**
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 02:02:50


gilgamesz 
Level 16
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You not a rookie yet - with your 0 played games you are barely human :-)
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 02:03:32


gilgamesz 
Level 16
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and the real Fizzer is allready invited
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 02:09:33

Qi 
Level 55
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the fizzer impersonator seems a bit too infatuated.
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 02:41:22


Seatide Landon
Level 2
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...What's this?
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 02:45:29


Seatide Landon
Level 2
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How did this guy change all those names?
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 03:18:06


lobstrosity 
Level 56
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I started a game against tru, I like the concept and I think even if it does not work perfectly at first a few tweaks will make these games interesting! I will let you know how it goes
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 03:22:53


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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The Fizzer Impersonater is in a deep lasting love with Fizzer..
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 06:15:44

Eitz 
Level 11
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[http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer.aspx?GameID=1757632](http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer.aspx?GameID=1757632)

I used the card on turn 8 but also got a free first turn (card wasn't played until turn 2). In my opinion, I like the idea of having just one sanction card used for a specific number of turns and then expiring to go back to full force. Then the Rookie can even have the option of playing it right at the start or holding it for a potentially more opportune time. I think the number of turns needs to be 5 cuz (at least in my game) I had virtually no chance of coming back from such a deficit of even 7 turns. Either that or I'm just not good enough to be involved in this challenge ;)
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 12:43:39

RvW 
Level 46
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@gilgamesz:
|> I was aiming at a template which a vet could use with open seats
|> and customize after learning who is his opponent ( e.g. "X" with
|> 5 multiplayer games and level 1 single player - the vet plays SC
|> card in turn 12; "Y" with 95 games and crazy done in single
|> player - the vet plays SC card in turn 3)

Ah, I see your point. How about dividing the sanctions card into 1 piece, and setting a minimum of 1 piece per turn? Then the rookie plays one every turn, until turn X.
Downsides: easy to forget, the veteran benefits if the rookie doesn't conquer any territory in a given turn and you'll both be discarding cards the entire game.

Another possible solution would be to increase all the bonuses (relatively easy, since you're making a template, so you only have to do it once) to compensate. If you multiply by 5/3, after 40% sanction (60% left), you'll end up with approximately (thank you rounding errors) the original values again.
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 12:50:02


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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why not just provide a card that can be used to give the newb an income bonus instead?
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 17:59:21

RvW 
Level 46
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|> why not just provide a card that can be used to give the newb an income bonus instead?

What gilgamesz is trying to accomplish is to use one template for different amounts of mismatches between skill levels. That's where the reference to open seats came from: first you determine the settings, then you determine the opponent.
With your idea it would still be necessary to change the duration of the income bonus (you're thinking about a negative-sanctions card, right?), which isn't possible; that has to be set before the opponents are chosen.
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 11/30/2011 23:20:55


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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my previous post was in response to
"Another possible solution would be to increase all the bonuses (relatively easy, since you're making a template, so you only have to do it once) to compensate. If you multiply by 5/3, after 40% sanction (60% left), you'll end up with approximately (thank you rounding errors) the original values again."


RvW, I don't see how a 1000 turn 40% bonus to the noob would be any different then a 1000 turn 40% decrease on the vet.. in either case the noob is gaining an advantage.. and providing a 40% boost to income would be more effective then increasing the bonuses by 40%.. it would be more accurate due to rounding errors, and would also apply a slight initial bonus for the noob to spread...
as I had stated in my previous game, these settings won't really teach noobs how to win in strat 1v1, but will be good for them to learn the fundamental aspects of it, without having to worry about efficiency against a better opponent.. and the better opponent is there to give you pointers afterwards ;)
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 12/1/2011 01:32:45


gilgamesz 
Level 16
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I am really gratefull to all those Rookies and Veterans who accepted my invitations and started playing this new game variant. Thank you!

@ Eitz
Its not that you are "not good enough to be involved in this challenge" - the problem is that BabyPossum is learning to fast :-) I think now he is allready able to win with the vet playing SC card in turn 5!!! If you are not to busy Eitz and if BabyPossum is not completely exhausted, maybe you could play rematch, with you playing the card in turn 4 (who knows what tricks he will learn from bytjie in the meantime?)
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 12/1/2011 02:17:19


gilgamesz 
Level 16
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@RvW
Thanks for support! Seems that you to want to squize as much knowledge from single player as possible before joining multiplayer games - that was my approach to :-)

@ Perrin
I was starting this response few times and deleting it again - I think I'll wait for few more of the games to finish and then we'll see. Thanks for contributting Perrin.

@ lobstrosity
Thanks for joining the fun.Can't wait to see the game!
Rookie v Veteran (SC 40%): 12/1/2011 03:42:08


lobstrosity 
Level 56
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@ gilgamesz
my game should be wrapping up soon, I believe I have pulled of the win sans sanction use on my end. I will definitely have a few pointers to share with Tru once the game is over :)
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