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Big Canada: 11/6/2011 16:33:42


Moros 
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After two weeks of hard work, here is a large variant of the Canada map! On this map every census division (about one step up from county) is a territory, except for the north, where every large island is a territory. I did this because on the south there are way more CD's than on the arctic areas.
It's not public yet, but here's an image:
![](http://tinypic.com/r/zo8j8m/5)
Big Canada: 11/6/2011 16:35:12


Moros 
Level 50
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???
Image doesn't work, so here's the link:
http://tinypic.com/r/zo8j8m/5
As you can see a part of Quebec is scaled different, I made it bigger because of the many tiny territs on it.
Big Canada: 11/6/2011 16:56:22


sasha grey
Level 2
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One day there will be a person who'll make a "big Monaco" map
Big Canada: 11/6/2011 16:58:34


Moros 
Level 50
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How can you make Monaco big? It's so small!
Just joking...
Big Canada: 11/6/2011 18:30:53


Moros 
Level 50
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Big Canada: 11/6/2011 18:38:58


Moros 
Level 50
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Okay, it became the 9th, but only one territ short to become the 8th...
Big Canada: 11/6/2011 19:08:47


Domenico
Level 16
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Awesome map! At first I didn't get the South Québec thing but I must admit it's a clever solution.
That's Dutch Design for you! Now, as for a flag for this map, [try this!](http://www.mixedflag.com/flag_detail.asp?flag1=Canada&flag2=Netherlands)
Big Canada: 11/6/2011 19:15:52


Moros 
Level 50
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Funny! How did you found that site?
Big Canada: 11/6/2011 19:21:52


Domenico
Level 16
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Two things, though:

1. The *Baffin Region* is not in any small bonus.
2. L'Île d'Orléans, Northern Québec, has also been made part of Southern Québec, by mistake I presume.
Big Canada: 11/6/2011 19:25:36


Moros 
Level 50
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I don't see what you mean with 1, and 2 was a mistake.
Big Canada: 11/6/2011 19:30:54


Matma Rex 
Level 12
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Annnd there go the bug reports :D

There's a tiny territory called L'Ile-d'Orleans (spelled with accents I can't type on my keyboard) in Quebec, which mysteriously belongs to the Souther Quebec bonus, despite being located nowhere near it. (It also belong to Northern Quebec - when you select it, it's at the very bottom-right of it.)

Is Saquenay supposed to connect to Lac-Saint-Jean-Est (they're both in Northern Quebec, the first one is kind of like a city, in a middle of a bigger territ)?

A island called Graham Island doesn't belong to the Queen Elizabeth Islands bonus, despite being in the middle of other islands in it.

Strathcona in British Columbia (bottom-left, on the cape) looks like two separate territories.

Connections between some islands are weird, for ex. the connections of Southern and Noerther Ile Du Prince-De-Galles (spelled with accents), in Mainland Islands bonus.

There are numerous missed connections is Southern Ontario, and a few in Southern Quebec (these are best seen on the map preview screen, where territories neighboring the selected ones are highlighted).

That's it for now from me; nice map :D, and mistakes like these always appear in any big one.
Big Canada: 11/6/2011 19:49:25


Moros 
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Okay, here go the answers.
Fixed L'Île-D'Orleans.
Yes, that connection is meant to be there, I just drawed it wrong.
I know of Strathcona and Mount Waddington, but somehow they're united, but the paths aren't.
Are those connections weird? I guess I forgot to make lines with them.
Fixed most of the missing connections there.
And also a strange bonus number (4 for 11 territs, while the other ones are always the number of territories + 1, as I always do) adjusted.
Baffin region added to Baffin Island
Big Canada: 11/6/2011 20:20:17


Domenico
Level 16
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I found the picture by typing Netherlands Canada in Google.
Next query was *Do a barrel roll*.

Probably, during testing, you'll find that some bonus values need tweaking because it is influenced by more than just the number of territories.
Same for the map I hope to bring as a Saint-Nicholas or Christmas present: I've made a standard value for regional and national bonuses, but they'll be different in the definitive version.
Big Canada: 11/6/2011 22:20:43


Matma Rex 
Level 12
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> And also a strange bonus number (4 for 11 territs, while the other ones are always the number of territories + 1, as I always do) adjusted.

This might not be the best idea when bonuses overlap.

For example, if you control the entire British Columbia, you get 29+10+20=59 income for 28 territories - that is over 2.1 income per territory, while if you control, say, Manitoba, just slightly smaller, you get 24 income for 23 territories - that is just above 1.0 per territ.
Big Canada: 11/7/2011 02:50:00

RvW 
Level 46
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Quebec:
The bonus rectangles are strangely ordered: Southern Quebec is drawn above Northern Quebec. Since most people associate "North" with "above", I think switching them around would be better.

Southern Quebec:
It looks like "L'ile d'Orleans" is still part of Southern Quebec (and Northern Quebec as well), maybe the link changed when you updated the map...? Could you post the new link please?

Southern Quebec:
This may or may not be a good idea, but I'm not sure if you already considered it, so here goes.
While I think the enlargement of SQ is a great idea, I do foresee a potential problem; working within SQ will be perfectly okay, but moving in/out of the enlarged area (crossing the border of SQ) could be very confusing.
Possible solution: You could make every territory of SQ consist of two parts, both the "original" (small) and enlarged version. If you put all the centres in the enlarged version, you still have the benefit of easier clicking, but you also make it much easier to see (because all the territories in the original scale will be coloured with the colour of their owner, "mirroring" the enlarged version) where to expect attacks.
Big Canada: 11/7/2011 16:14:35


Moros 
Level 50
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Already made some adjustments, but the new version is still pending :(

@ RvW
Already considered your South Quebec idea, maybe in the next version.
Big Canada: 11/7/2011 16:29:41

reddleman
Level 3
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I love the idea of enlarging small territories to make them easier to click. If anything, that part of Quebec could be a bit larger too.

I did find a few territories in southern Ontario that seem to be lacking connections, like York, Simcoe, Perth and some others. For example, York looks like it should be connected to Simcoe, Durham, Toronto and Peel, but it's only actually connected to Peel.
Big Canada: 11/9/2011 13:30:05


Moros 
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Okay, a new version just got public, it got all the connections in South Ontario and South Quebec, and the idea from RvW, and added the contours of the neighboring countries to make it look better. And added 3 territories, mostly to make it have more territs than large Africa :)
And tweaked Mount Waddington and Strathcona so they don't look like two territories anymore.

Link: http://warlight.net/SinglePlayer.aspx?TemplateID=123093
Big Canada: 11/12/2011 01:07:37

RvW 
Level 46
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The "mirroring" of the enlarged version back to the original tiny version looks really nice, thanks you for implementing that!
Found a missing connection, in Northern Quebec I'm pretty sure La Tuque and Le Domaine-Du-Roy should be connected.
Didn't finish my first game yet, but so far I like it. :)
Big Canada: 11/12/2011 02:08:01

RvW 
Level 46
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Speaking of missing connections; Magdalen Islands is not connected to Kings County, even though it's explicitly drawn on the map (with a yellow line) it should be. :)

Speaking of missing; an edit post feature would be nice...
Big Canada: 11/12/2011 11:49:10

RvW 
Level 46
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[Summary of my previous two posts on the first page of comments:]
The "mirroring" of the enlarged version back to the original tiny version looks really nice, thanks you for implementing that!
Missing connections:
La Tuque <--> Le Domaine-Du-Roy (Northern Quebec)
Magdalen Islands <--> Kings County (Prince Edward Island)

[New post]
Possible missing connection:
Basse Côte-Nord <--> Division 10 (Newfoundland and Labrador)

I've never worked with SVGs, so I have absolutely no idea how much time the following suggestion would take to implement, but (if reasonably possible), I think the enlarged region could be made even bigger. Currently, single-digit armies fit, but (especially in the North-Western corner) any double-digit armies create a mess, overlapping with neighbouring territories.

You seem to be inconsistent with connections at four-territory points (a point where four territories touch each other, but only with their corners). Sometimes the "opposite" territories connect to each other, sometimes they don't. Example, in New Brunswick, you have Kent, Queens, Sunbury and Northumberland. Of those, Kent and Sunbury are connected while Queens and NUL are not. I see two possible reasons for that:
- in the "original" (before converting to straight line segments), those are the correct connections
- it is actually an error
In the first case, just say so and I'll shut up. In the second case, tell me what you prefer (connected or not connected) and I'll let you know if I find any mistakes.

Would you consider giving the "bonus square" for Ottawa another colour? I spent a couple minutes going over the map a few times trying to discover where on Earth (well, where in Canada I guess ;) ) one of the AIs got two bonus from; completely overlooking the black-on-black Ottawa square.

One more thing, you seem to be very generous with bonus armies, maybe a little too much so...? Especially in Quebec; remember, bonuses stack, so holding all of Quebec gives me 40+17+27+25 PLUS another 105 = 214 armies each turn (on, if I'm not mistaken, a total of 580 armies in the whole map).
I think the total armies per turn is a little bit high, but more importantly, it's way too skewed. Sure, it's hard to obtain (due both to the very large number of territories and how stretched out they are), but once you have it, it's relatively easy to keep under your control (there are not too many territories on the border). Defending is made even easier since the high number of bonus armies you obtain will make it too easy to clean out New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland; that'd get rid of your second front (and collecting even more bonuses in the process!). In short, I think this map is "the battle for Quebec (and steam rolling the rest of Canada as an afterthought)".
For comparison, both Ontario and Nunavut also have "stacked bonuses", but they are much harder to defend and the total number is not too high, compared to the rest of the map.
While I do understand the reason for subdividing a bonus into multiple smaller ones (not losing most of your reinforcements if an opponent does an all-out attack on a single territory), I think the number of additional bonus armies for holding all the small bonuses in a group should be a lot lower. In fact, I don't agree with the (apparently-used) rule that the total bonus should be worth almost as much as the total of its sub-bonuses; dropping it to 30 or 40 (drastically reducing the whole-Ontario and whole-Nunavut bonuses as well, to keep things balanced) would be okay I think.
To be honest though, I've only played versus the AI so far, so maybe this works differently when battling human opponents...?

Hope this helps!
Big Canada: 11/12/2011 12:23:28


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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the Quebec bonus is like the unification of china bonus in the E.asia map... It's a game ender.. and almost impossible to gain without having already effectively won..

that being said, you seem to follow the give/take 1-3 armies on each bonus, including the super-bonus's, which is a really bad idea.. I just watched one and the AI that dominated nunavut ended up with 3X the combined income of everyone else with relative ease.. personally, I'd be more prone to change the bonuses into earning maybe 10% more then the total territories with all the bonuses combined.. meaning
40+17+27+25 PLUS another 105 = 214 would turn into something more like
32+14+24+21 + say 24-25 for the superbonus...

giving roughly 115 total bonus.. that way trying to capture the bonus would be slightly less beneficial initially, thus inspiring risk, instead of making it the only effective strategy.. but if you do manage to capture the super-bonus, you will end up with a better reward..
Big Canada: 11/12/2011 13:55:11


Moros 
Level 50
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I'm not so sure how to define what to give the bonus, I usually just take the number of territs + 1, and I've tried making a formula, but that didn't really work. If anyone would like to redefine all the bonuses and tell a better amount of armies, I'd be pleased.
Big Canada: 11/12/2011 15:02:52

RvW 
Level 46
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The number-of-territories + 1 formula isn't necessarily bad, but it's aimed at none-overlapping bonuses. I'm not experienced enough to give numbers myself, but I'll play a game or two using the numbers suggested by Perrin3088 as inspiration:

40 32 Southern Quebec
17 14 Saint Lawrence Quebec
27 24 Northern Quebec
25 21 Central Quebec
109 24 Quebec (total)

11 9 Northern Ontario
18 15 Central Ontario
24 20 Southern Ontario
51 16 Ontario (total)

24 21 Queen Elizabeth Islands
8 7 Baffin Islands
7 6 Mainland Islands
31 8 Nunavut (total)

10 8 Northern British Columbia
20 16 Southern British Columbia
29 6 British Columbia (total)

Let's see how that works out.

(Hint for other people trying to post such updated lists: use a tab at the start of each line, and between columns. Then the forum will format it like above. Use the "Preview" button to check if you're unsure.)


BTW, just noticed something... is it the intention the Queen Elizabeth Islands (partly) overlap with the Northwest Territories?
Big Canada: 11/12/2011 16:03:49


Moros 
Level 50
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Answering a few suggestions/questions:
Missing connections: fixed in next version
Even larger South Quebec: I'll give it a try, now it's at 200%, I think the map'll look ugly if it gets any bigger, but I'll see.
Fourpoints: I used the only map there was that showed all the census divisions, but it wasn't the precise. On that map it looked like there was a small border making it no fourpoint but two threepoints. But I looked it up in a New Brunswick map, and it was a fourpoint. So I'll edit it in the next version.
Ottawa: To be honest, I rather keep small bonuses the same color as the large ones, that making it look better if you zoom out. Since Ottawa is the only one-terit bonus in the whole map, I think no one will have trouble with it more than once.
Bonus armies: See my previous post.
Queen Elizabeth: yup, that's intentional, it's just as in real life.
Big Canada: 11/12/2011 18:31:28

RvW 
Level 46
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I not exactly ready to call it perfect yet (both because I'm too inexperienced and since I only tried one full game), but I do think those bonus numbers I gave above are much better than the originals. If someone with more experience wants to fine-tune, please feel free of course.
Oh, the "square" for the Quebec bonus is actually a rectangle (to fit the three-digit "105" I assume). If you do decide to lower how many armies it's worth (and if it's very little effort), it would be nice to make it a square. (Sorry, I can be a perfectionist sometimes. :p )

Maybe we're misunderstanding each other; I don't mean the outline on the map, I just mean the square that has the number in it. Once you see the number, all you have to do is click it and it will show which territory is in fact worth two armies. Point is, you do have to be aware a bonus exists to look it up. (BTW, I fully agree it would be ugly to make Ottawa's border another colour. Besides, that would make it look like you don't need it to complete the Ontario and Central Ontario bonuses; that would be a much more costly mistake.)
Tip from another thread about map-making: if a territory belongs to two different bonuses, the order in which you add them to the bonuses determines the colour of its border (either the first or last selected bonus, I forgot). If the border has the "wrong" colour, just deselect it from the bonus and select it again, that should fix it. (Sorry, can't credit whoever posted that, can't find a search function on this forum...?)

ps. Don't forget Yukon, it's a single-territory bonus too! :)

---

I can't seem to find a link directly to the map itself, but here's the link to the template again, just in case other people are also too lazy to click back to page one every time: http://warlight.net/SinglePlayer.aspx?TemplateID=123093
Big Canada: 11/16/2011 01:36:04

RvW 
Level 46
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I'm not entirely sure if this will work (if it's publicly accessible), but here's the template I'm using for testing. It has the bonuses I listed above: http://warlight.net/SinglePlayer.aspx?TemplateID=125926
If someone suggests alternative values I may change the template to use those instead. I assume the link will stay the same in that case and the template will be updated, but I'm not entirely sure about that.
Big Canada: 11/16/2011 01:44:49

RvW 
Level 46
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Ow, and another missing connection: Baffin Region <--> Baffin Island
Big Canada: 11/23/2011 13:02:24


Moros 
Level 50
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Oh, and any tips for the other bonuses?
Big Canada: 11/23/2011 20:16:10

RvW 
Level 46
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@Moros:
How do you mean "the other bonuses"? I don't think anyone considered the "non subdivided" bonuses unbalanced...

Nice to see you back! I was beginning to worry you abandoned Big Canada. :(
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