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2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/11/2013 18:39:12

ChrisCMU
Level 60
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Playing a 2v2 manual distribution game. Both of us pick the same pick set, yet neither one of us gets a pick in the top 2. That means they both got picks before either one of us got a pick. How is that possible? The game is set to cyclical, but the Wiki states it follows the same rules as normal distribution before going into the cyclical pattern:

http://wiki.warlight.net/index.php/Move_Order

Distribution rules:
http://wiki.warlight.net/index.php/Manual_Distribution

Is this a bug or am I missing something? It does not seem fair for a team to get two picks before the other team gets any.
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/11/2013 19:26:39

[WM] Gnuffone
Level 60
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IF you mirror like you say, is possible of course don't get both 1 2 .
This mean, that opposite team take pick both before you.
like:
A B are you and your teammate
C D opponent
this mean opponent pick your 1/2 same of you.
no BUG, is just luck.
in this case, the % (assuming you mirror and opponent pick the same of you ) is: 8,83%:
expalin: chance to get last pick of 4, is 25%. then 3 pick left, and chance to get unlucky again and get last again is 1/3, 33,33%.
so 1/3 X 1/4 = 8,83%...

move order doesn't matter on picking stage

Edited 12/11/2013 19:30:02
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/11/2013 21:09:55

ChrisCMU
Level 60
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But then what does this mean?:

"All players are put into a random order. For example, if there are four players named A, B, C, and D, the random list could come out BDCA. In team games, WarLight also ensures this is fairly divided between teams."

How is CDAB evenly divided? IMO, the pick order in 2v2 (players AB vs CD) should ALWAYS be one of these combinations:

ACDB
BCDA
BDCA
CABD
DBAC
DABC

Hopefully I did not miss a combination, but it should always be pick from team 1 (randomly decided), 2 picks from team 2, pick from team 1...repeat in opposite order. Then of course the slots within the team are random. But, there should never be a case of CDAB...I just don't see how that is even as the wiki states.
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/12/2013 00:24:19

ChrisCMU
Level 60
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I guess what I want to know is if this is intended by Fizzer or not. It seems unfair if so, and should be changed. If it does not change, the wiki needs to be updated to reflect that, because it is misleading for sure.
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/12/2013 07:16:28

Krzysztof
Level 66
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chris, can you post link to this game?
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/12/2013 07:21:36

Seahawks
Level 51
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interesting, i had this happen in clan league last time where the move order on a turn went DCAB causing us to lose the game :(, i guess it jsut happens sometimes
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/12/2013 07:44:51

Krzysztof
Level 66
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according to wiki, "it's not possible for both of team A's players to get to move before any of team B's players". So i assume the rule apply to picks also and the only exception can be caused only by OP card.
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/12/2013 08:06:43

[WM] Gnuffone
Level 60
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this is wrong. i remember an old 3v3 with trollussa, that opponent team take all 3 1st move. i Always play EU 3v3 no cards ;)
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/12/2013 08:11:59

Krzysztof
Level 66
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how old?
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/12/2013 08:38:30

[WM] Gnuffone
Level 60
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hmmm was summer 2012 likely.
considering that after septmber i play less then 30 3v3 with him. And in new year (2013) he is retired.

Edited 12/12/2013 08:45:48
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/12/2013 08:44:29

Krzysztof
Level 66
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ah, so no that old (according to fizzer's post this behaviour was changed with introduction of 2v2 ladder in 2011(?))
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/12/2013 08:46:12

[WM] Gnuffone
Level 60
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yes in april 2011 if i remember right.
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/12/2013 15:55:09

ChrisCMU
Level 60
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The game is in progress, so I cannot post the link. If Fizzer wants to look into it, I can mail him link. I will post it when the game is over though.
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/16/2013 21:36:04

ChrisCMU
Level 60
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Fizzer? Is this intended to be this way?

Can whoever decides these things make this notable? Otherwise I will just submit a bug report because this is not operating as the wiki suggests it should.
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/17/2013 08:10:00

[WM] Gnuffone
Level 60
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give us link before report ;)
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/17/2013 15:47:26

ChrisCMU
Level 60
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Well, brisk already figured it out, so here is the game:

http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=5267538

Not sure how it helps since the game is in progress. But you can at least see the settings.
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/17/2013 17:43:26

Fizzer
Level 58

Warzone Creator
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It looks like this is an issue with the way cyclic move order is implemented.

The way cyclic move order works is that it first does one "random" move order and stores it. Then, each time the code requests the order, it cycles it based on the turn number. For example, turn 1 cycles once, and turn 2 cycles twice, etc. Internally, WarLight uses turn -1 to signify that a game is in territory distribution. For this reason, the move order gets cycled once for territory picks.

A = Team A, first player
a = Team A, second player
B = Team B, third player
b = Team B, fourth player

Therefore, if the initial, fair, random move order was ABba, it would get cycled to aABb (move the a from the right to left). This then becomes unfair, since team A gets the first move twice.

This is just yet another reason why cyclic move order is a bad idea in team games. This will never happen in random move order, which is why this (thankfully) can't happen in the 2v2 ladder.

Thanks for reporting it. I'm going to fix this, although I'm not sure how yet. I could either patch it so it's fair for territory distribution since that's more important than the turns, but it may be better to just replace the way cyclic move order works completely.
2v2 manual distribution, no top 2 picks: 12/17/2013 18:44:38

ChrisCMU
Level 60
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Thanks Fizzer. Yeah, I would say the distribution should be separate from the cycle. Cyclical may not be a great setting for 2v2, but if someone does want to use it, separating the distribution would make it much more fair.
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