Making more groups/tiers would still mean more time needed to promote to higher tiers and that's exactly why groups were changed last time around.

You can't say "finish this after 60 days and we're good", because, as Pushover and Metatron examined in their posts, there are many different stories that make it impossible to work. Throwing out players would lower competitiveness and we don't want it. It's not like they stall on purpose of delaying everything.

Please don't change anything.


By the way, I changed my mind and wish to stay in the League.

Edited 11/1/2016 16:49:49

I'd rather have the 2 option.

@ Min34
There aren't only 2 options where you need to choose the the bad or the worst.
If you disagree with both say so.

I am proposing not a different league, the same league but with 2 or more separate P/R systems in it.

Thus it speeds us the league just like the tier system does with the difference of not having the drawback of a single group holding the P/R of the entire league but just of half of it or less.
It can also cater for a tier system in it but it might not be even needed.

@ Onoma94
Thus making the P/R league more flexible in general and also allowing more groups without the "time needed to promote to higher tiers" problem.
Also allowing pushy to assign the administration of an entire P/R system to someone else without making it too confusing for co-ordination.

Edited 11/1/2016 19:37:01

Metatron from what i've heard you clearly stalled the progress in your group and now you claim it's unfair to get rid of overly slow players? Maybe better play faster or at least be aware you might get kicked from the league next season.

"60 days / 3(length of game time) = 20 days to finish each game. 20 days /2 days for each turn = 10 turns each game anyway"

And there's the obvious problem i see. Speed shouldn't average on 2 days! You are allowed to take up to 2d23hours, but in fact this should only happen if you are busy the other days, and not as standard.

Edit: i don't see pushover kicking someone after 60 days just because he had 6 games with 20+ turns, as long as he plays on a reasonable speed. What i hope we get rid off, are the abusive players who play every turn extremely slow

Edited 11/1/2016 19:40:03

"Metatron from what i've heard you clearly stalled the progress in your group and now you claim it's unfair to get rid of overly slow players?"
That is a weird way to interpret what i said.
i said:
"Taking average of worst acceptable case= 2 days each turn."
That does not fall under "overly slow players" in my opinion.
It is the usual multiday 3 day boot speed of those players who play multi day and have a busy life.

About me taking 2 days 23 hrs, that is true, but it only happened because i did not want to take a 15 day vacation and slow down the tournament even more.
The tournament took too long to start and RL work dropped on me this summer.

I consider this a very likely scenario that will happen again the more players participate, and unlike me, they won't risk boot but will take vacations.

I am trying to help solving this issue for everyone.

"Maybe better play faster or at least be aware you might get kicked from the league next season."
So you are saying that if a guy takes 2 days to play his turns he should not join the league?

Why not make it 2 day boot then or remove vacations with your same reasoning?

"And there's the obvious problem i see. Speed shouldn't average on 2 days!"
It does not average on 2 days in normal circumstances but you are not taking normal circumstances, we are talking about a tournament that takes months and within this long time period people will be busy with one thing or another.

With few players this wasn't a big issue because the league used to end in less then a month, but with increasing players this is a huge problem that needs to be addressed.

"You are allowed to take up to 2d23hours, but in fact this should only happen if you are busy the other days, and not as standard."
Is not my standard, but I had a 15 day period where i should have taken a vacation and I did not.
So I kept delaying my turn till I had an hr to spend for WR to do a proper turn, unfortunately for me that didn't happen all the turns.

Edited 11/1/2016 19:58:49

I know that I'm just joining this season. But in general I would rather play more games at a time than have the specter of a forced finish or other time limit looming over everything. I would prefer that if I need a vacation, I can go on a vacation. If I need to play slowly for whatever reason, then I play slowly.

Intentionally stalling games is of course obnoxious. Please don't do that.

There aren't only 2 options where you need to choose the the bad or the worst.
If you disagree with both say so.

I am proposing not a different league, the same league but with 2 or more separate P/R systems in it.

I don't really care tbh. If it stays like it is right now I'm ok with it. If it needs to change I'll also be ok with it. However, if there is going to be a chance I would rather have option 2

( The second option is having a league-wide deadline with additional rules to help govern what happens in outstanding games. (with lots of email warnings in the meantime) That is, if it's obvious who we are waiting on, we just give up those games and move on. If it's not obvious we do nothing. And no action is taken until we are ready to start the next season.)

I think this is the best option there is and the one that will involve the least change to a very good league. For most players nothing will change.

Edited 11/1/2016 22:39:00

Jesus.. i haven't even played one game in this league and its already so much drama xD

in my opinion its simple, really.

obviously there is discontent about the speed/duration of this league.

3 options

1. leave settings as they are
2. increase game count
3. decrease boot time/vacations

now its up to the creators of this league ta make a decision, and all of us will life with that decision or simply quit the league and let the rest of us play in peace.

(if pushover doesnt wanna take this decision on his own, he could make a public poll with google docs or survey-monkey or whatever)

Let me be clear about how I would imagine option 2 would work, assuming 60 day deadline. Note that for next season, with Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays coming up, I'll probably make it 75 days to start.

* League officially begins at the join deadline, even if some tournaments begin before then
* A blurb is pasted into each group's comments explaining the new rule
* At 30 days before the deadline, all groups are analyzed. Anyone who looks like they could run afoul of the rule will get a private message warning. Say, fewer than 3 games completed.
* At 14 days before the deadline, a warning will go out to all players with any outstanding games.
* At 7 days before the deadline, another warning will go out to all players with any outstanding games.
* At the deadline, the league is analyzed. If a group F1 situation arises, then the deadline is extended until the group is resolved to where slow players can individually be identified. All players with outstanding games are notified with progress.
* No one will be removed from the league for slow play, rather, the delaying player will be given losses and the non delaying player will be given wins.
* If a player speeds up their play but their *opponent* slows down their play in hopes to get a default judgement, well, that's pretty much grounds for being kicked out. Screw that.
* If players who play each other both delay, they are both given losses.
* This rule will only be used to help decide promotions and relegations - things that prevent the next season from starting.

Using this season as an example:

* At Oct 8 update, we use the 30 day guideline, and the following players are given warnings: Metatron, AJ, Math Wolf, Hunta, japan77
* (Skipping the 14 days left guideline since I didn't have enough updates)
* At 7 days left (using my Oct 25 update), the following players are given warnings: Metatron (only player with outstanding games), PhucilliJerry & Platinum (game delayed by vacations), all players in group F1
* At 0 days left (Oct 31 update), we analyze the groups....
* In group F1, AJ and japan77 are determined to be holding up the league. AJ is given 2 losses (he promotes), japan77 is given 2 losses (he relegates), and both BADA and bob are given an extra win each, and they stay in tier F.
* In group D2, both PhucilliJerry and Platinum are given losses from their head to head. This doesn't break the relegation contest, clearly. Since we don't actually have a result between them, I'm forced to use average turn speed in their game. Yuck. (As it turns out though, just waiting for Phucilli's vacation to end was good enough, and Platinum gets the real win.)
* In group C2, Metatron is given 2 additional losses, and stays in tier C. Pushover gets the promotion playoff. Eww, an admin makes a decision that benefits himself.

It's my *hope* that given a threat of this sort of action, players will make a point to take two turns each 3 days, and I'll never *have* to actually take such action. But bleh. Can't we just do 3 games at a time?

@Metatron

"With few players this wasn't a big issue because the league used to end in less then a month"

Sorry but I have to cry B.S. here. Prior seasons were delayed just as much as they are now. The reason why I am bringing up this issue isn't so much because of season length, but because of how long it takes for a talented new player to rise to the top group: literally a year or two. It's the tier navigation that has been negatively affected by how large this league has gotten, not season duration. I'm hoping that slightly shortening season duration should help with the tier navigation issue.

So if it seems that I'm bringing up an issue that was never an issue, well, you're not wrong.

"So you are saying that if a guy takes 2 days to play his turns he should not join the league?"

You are in the minority. Even the slower players in group F1 take 2 turns each 3 days, for an average of 36 hours per turn or less. As i said before, I feel like to run this league the best way I can, I have to piss some people off. I piss off fewer people with the "season boot" rule than 3 games at a time.

That said, maybe I should piss off more people. 8 player groups and 3 games at a time makes so many things easier: everyone is allocated 3 games at start of season, I can be more liberal with promotions and relegations, and there are fewer tiers to navigate to the top. Maybe I shouldn't be afraid to lose players this way.

"Why not make it 2 day boot then or remove vacations with your same reasoning?"

Because of flexibility. Most the players in the league will play quickly, take a vacation, then play quickly again. Or, they want to think about a move for a couple days, or are busy one weekend and resume when they get back. The idea behind the season boot rule is that I *want* you to take up to 3 days per turn when you need it, and I *want* you to take a vacation when you need it, but I *also* want you to finish 6 games in 60 days.

"Is not my standard, but I had a 15 day period where i should have taken a vacation and I did not."

This period of time covers 6 turns, but the data does not back this up. In your game against me you played 11 straight turns at 2 days 14 hours or more. That is a full month.

"Sorry but I have to cry B.S. here. Prior seasons were delayed just as much as they are now."

No they were not, I remember when this league had ABCDE as groups and it was quick, it did end in a month. Definitely never 3 months in the beginning.
Then groups started to increase with F etc.. and more players per group, and we started to see more then a month time periods.

"You are in the minority."
No I' am not, I did not even take a vacation.
Those who take vacations will stall more then I did, especially if you have 2 vacations in the same group.
You are miscalculating your worse acceptable case which I did not even fall under.


"but because of how long it takes for a talented new player to rise to the top group"
I don't know how you cannot see the relation.
It takes a year because every season takes months to finish.
That is the main issue.
If there are 6 groups, a person at the bottom needs 5 seasons to get to top minimum, unless super promoted.
5 seasons x 3 months(including administration time) = 1 year+ time.

"It's the tier navigation that has been negatively affected by how large this league has gotten, not season duration."
Even season duration, every season it takes longer because it has more players.= more chances for people to go on vacation and stall the league.

"Because of flexibility. Most the players in the league will play quickly, take a vacation, then play quickly again."
You are being naive if you think that vacations won't screw this flawed concept of yours.
You cannot play fast if you were on vacation, you would still have to wait on the availability of the others in the group.
If I took a vacation with you and another player we would still be playing right now and there would be nothing you would say to me except that I took a vacation. Then if someone on our group takes a vacation after my vacation, we will be in the same situation where you cannot blame anybody for it.
The only solution to this are either 3 games per player, separate P/R or lower group size to reduce the chance of vacations in the same group.
EDIT:
OR find some way for players to be able to start all their games in the RR when they want.

"The idea behind the season boot rule is that I *want* you to take up to 3 days per turn when you need it, and I *want* you to take a vacation when you need it, but I *also* want you to finish 6 games in 60 days."
Yea we all want many things but we cannot get all we want can we?

I thought we were debating an issue and how to solve it but it seems I was wrong.

It is my opinion that there are situations when 6 games cannot be finished in 60 days with vacations for the reasons I mentioned, which you did not address.

Your opinion seems that it can work and you seem committed to it enough to not consider any other options, so you should try it and see how it goes.

More players = more chances of vacation in the same group which in turn slows down the league which in turn slows down promotions of skilled players.
Unfortunately this problem is not being addressed well.

I think I gave my contribution to help with the issue.

"This period of time covers 6 turns, but the data does not back this up. In your game against me you played 11 straight turns at 2 days 14 hours or more. That is a full month."
I said 15 days of vacation were needed but I had busy work all summer.

Just so you know my position:

I have no problem with 3 games at a time now and neither any problem with the 60 day limit for me personally, I can handle that.

I am sure some people won't eventually because in 60 days anything can happen, like what happened to me, that is why I think it is a horrible idea.

Edited 11/2/2016 10:47:08

Just saying, I am playing 2 turns every three days. It's just that my games generally take a large number of turns because I'm not willing to admit defeat unless I'm 95% certain that there is no potential way to victory, and I play a cautious style, which results in me taking many more turns than others to win.

Having seen Metatron and japan77's game histories, I would say neither player is intentionally stalling, or taking many more turns than average (if you noticed, I haven't been using that word, but rather "slow play").

In general, taking more turns is not admirable, you should know when you lost.

Anyway, based on responses so far, most participants seem to favor a 60 day cutoff (75 days next season). I might lose a couple players to the new rule. I will hash out details and announce it officially in the new thread when season 21 starts. The rules will shy away from nuance and judgment calls and towards easily observable facts.

Metatron, I appreciate that you don't agree, and I am making the decision to piss you off with my eyes wide open, sorry. This is because you and other slow players really *are* niche. In my estimation 90-95% of the league will not be affected by this rule ever.

I want to reiterate that I am *not* accusing Metatron of foul play *at all*. I am making a decision based on the playing habits of the majority of the league, and based on what I think will benefit the majority of the league.

I'll probably lose a bigger chunk of top players if I go to 3 games at a time, based on the responses in this thread. So unfortunately I need to let go of this idea.

Thank you everyone who participated in the discussion, it was really helpful to come to a decision.

TODO:
1. Check on the progress of the playoff games
2. Adjust promotions and relegations given that Onoma94 changed his mind about leaving
3. Check on the progress of the outstanding groups

Edited 11/3/2016 02:03:43

I'd like to be added to the waiting list to join. Thanks.

Edited 11/3/2016 02:04:32

i don't like the idea of a limit it cuts off time for planning or, time for school/work to be in the way of getting on. ive also got a mind that can stack and separate a lot of different things so 3 games at a time sounds great.

Edited 11/6/2016 03:26:07

This got buried a bit

Please add me to your waitlist for the next season. Thanks!

Sorry about my unplanned hiatus, but the timing seems to be right as certain groups have finished this holiday weekend. If all goes according to plan, I should have the next season ready to go by Sunday the 27th, with tournament join deadline by December 11, and the "hard cap" end of league being February 26, 11 weeks after the start (about 77 days). After this trial run the league length will be shortened to 9 weeks (+2 weeks to join tournaments) which means we have about 5 seasons per year and 3 weeks.

Here are the results from the last groups to finish:

GROUP C2
smileyleg (6-0) - WINNER, Promotes to B
Pushover (4-2, 1-1) - tie
Metatron (4-2, 1-1) - tie
Hades (4-2, 1-1) - tie
Don [ Ω ] (1-5) - Relegates to D
Master Atom ◆Elite◆ (1-5) - Removed for inactivity (surrendering without playing)
Ollie (1-5) - Removed for inactivity (boots)

Hades beats Metatron to force a 3 way tie for second place. In the interest of time, I will be promoting the group C1 runner up without a playoff game. Therefore Metatron, Hades, and I will all compete in tier C next season.

GROUP D2
Dom365 (5-1) - WINNER, Promotes to C
Arkanton (4-2, 1-0) - Promotes to C
Master Jz (4-2, 0-1) - Promotes to C
Platinum (3-3, 1-0)
Maréchal Lannes, duc de Montebello (3-3, 0-1)
PhucilliJerry (2-4) - Relegates to E
MightySpeck (a Koala) (0-6) - Relegates to E

Platinum beats PhucilliJerry to stay in tier D, while PhucilliJerry relegates.

GROUP F1
AWOL Gls AJ (4-0) - WINNER, Promotes to E
Math Wolf (4-2, 1-1) - Promotes to E
Pink (4-2, 1-1) - Promotes to E
Hunta (4-2, 1-1) - Promotes to E
bobbob000 (2-4)
BADA (1-5)
[wolf]japan77 (0-6) - Relegates to G

The final games see japan77 relegating to tier G.

Tier G Super-Promotion to E Playoff:
MisterT defeats Motoki!

Tier G Promotion to F playoff:
Kevin Turner defeats Coronel Gavilan!

TODO (hopefully by Sunday):
1. Adjust promotions and relegations given that Onoma94 changed his mind about leaving
2. Update the new players lists
3. Report final standings, promotions, and relegations
4. Report groups for season 21
5. Adjust rules language according to new rules and discussion
6. Create season 21 groups
7. Determine season 21 promotions and relegations (prior to adjustments for inactive players)
8. Create new season 21 thread

This is the revised promotion and relegation schedule:

GROUP A - 7 players, 2 relegate (gain 2 from B)
6th and 7th place relegates

GROUP B - 6 players, 1 dropped out, 2 promote (gain 2 from A), 2 relegate (gain 3 from C)
1st and 2nd place promotes, 5th and 6th place relegates

TIER C - 3 dropped out, 3 promote (gain 2 from B), 2 relegate (gain 6 from D)
GROUP C1 - 6 players, 1st through 2nd place promotes, 6th place relegates
GROUP C2 - 5 players, winner promotes, 5th place relegates
Playoff between 2nd place C1 and 2nd place C2 cancelled in interest of time

TIER D - 1 dropped out, 6 promote (gain 2 from C), 4 relegate (gain 9 from E)
GROUP D1 - 6 players, 1st through 3rd place promotes, 5th and 6th place relegates
GROUP D2 - 7 players, 1st through 3rd place promotes, 6th and 7th place relegates

TIER E - 4 dropped out, 9 promote (gain 4 from D), 3 relegate (gain 8 from F, gain 4 from G)
GROUP E1 - 5 players, 1st through 3rd place promotes, 5th place relegates
GROUP E2 - 5 players, 1st through 3rd place promotes, 5th place relegates
GROUP E3 - 6 players, 1st through 3rd place promotes, 6th place relegates

TIER F - 8 dropped out, 8 promote (gain 3 from E), 2 relegate (gain 15 from G)
GROUP F1 - 7 players, 1st through 4th place promotes, 7th place relegates
GROUP F3 - 6 players, 1st through 4th place promotes, 6th place relegates

TIER G - 3 dropped out, 4 promote to E, 15 promote to F (gain 2 from F)
GROUP G1 - 7 players, 1st place promotes to E, 2nd through 5th place promotes to F
GROUP G2 - 6 players, 1st place promotes to E, 2nd through 5th place promotes to F
GROUP G3 - 7 players, 1st place promotes to E, 2nd through 5th place promotes to F
GROUP G4 - 5 players, 1st place promotes to E, 2nd through 4th place promotes to F

Onoma94 returning to the league means there will only be 4 super-promotions to tier E from tier G, which basically makes both playoff games completely unnecessary. Oops! Kevin Turner remains in tier G, and MisterT will only promote to tier F.

Additionally, the tier C promotion playoff is cancelled, 2nd place C1 takes the final promotion spot.

Edited 11/25/2016 21:00:42

Season 21 new players:
Master Farah♦ https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4543063534
ViralGoat https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=7841556925
Kaerox https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=5873144373
krunx https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=6328159606
IMMORTAL https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4571217678
Trixie Lulamoon https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=6043451722
[*Voo*] tomn555 https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=279088319
Terek https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=2340628936
Nickovision https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4342915126
ARand0mPlayer https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=7710521647
El professor https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=9740774010
Phaeril https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=7510748853
Ink Splatoon https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=1859062976
Matt431 https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=538068105
{Shredtail2} https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4018123716
.. this guy https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=9373696672
Robert E Lee https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4410807582
Mr. Nobody https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=8763984381
Edge https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=7432342455
Des {TJC} https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=9623657141
zanbato https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=6647564600
Mirage https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4752375309
Rubin https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=8813783184
The Adversary https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=917159838
Alexander The Only One https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=7628414181
J_Dog33340 https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=1947175828
Black.Bishop https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=817245268
Etienne https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4747057948

Waitlist:
Great Expanse https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=9935521502
Andresso https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=6441410851
Apollo https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=5755701451
Rikku https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=2969075806
The Royal Canadian Empire https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=3036422648
[WOLF]-Aleksander The Great https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=7936869064

It's very unlikely that anyone replying to this thread now will get into season 21. You should plan to not play until end of February.