I don't have a hard stance on gun control (I think civilians with guns comes with both pros and cons) and I usually steer away from heated political discussions but I thought I would play devil's advocate for some of you guys and provide a few images and links a friend happened to post on his FB the other day. Keep in mind I just doing this to add some diversity into this thread and show the "other side of the argument on guns" if you will.













http://everytownresearch.org/reports/innocents_lost/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/19/guns-in-america-for-every-criminal-killed-in-self-defense-34-innocent-people-die/

https://gunculture2point0.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/understanding-case-control-studies-of-gun-ownership-as-a-risk-factor/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2015/08/26/americas-gun-violence-problem-in-three-charts/

Just adding something new to the thread. My world view is that you should also see all sides of the argument before making an informed and educated opinion. Statistics have shown that more people accidentally turn their guns on themselves than actually kill criminals in self-defense. However guns are a fundamental individual right in America and is enshrined in the Second Amendment. The question now is, is individual freedom or social order(stability) more important in this situation? My personal stance on gun control (and by extension American politics) is much more complicated, but I can definitely see where both sides are coming from and they both have a point.

Jai. I wouldnt trust the police, if I where american in america, as well, but this is not the topic.^^
By adapting to modern society I meant to fully agree to terms of society contracts, for example law and devided forces. it means you are part of a overall agreement due to social conventions. everyone has its rights and duties. executive parts are restricted to special institutions like the police as well as judgement is restricted to court. If everyone would claim to do that all on its own, it would end in anarchy - which can work under certain circumstances but still is the opposite of society.

Thanks for the research Homeless. Interesting numbers. However at some point people need to recognize that the question: "Should guns be legal" is already answered in of itself. The bill of rights enshrines it as a fundamental right in the constitution. Does anyone know how hard it is to pass an amendment? The last one was in 1992 just to get some perspective. Guns are legal and they will be legal. Any attempt to criminalize gun possession in the US would be marked by a new civil war...and I'm not even slightly joking when I say that. The federal takeover of Oregon should be an indication of this.

everyone has its rights and duties

Completely agreed. All good societies are based on a social contract. And America's social contract between the government and its citizens say Americans can own guns. That's their right. Now Europe is a bit different and I totally understand this. Historically there is no concept of European citizens owning guns...or at least it was never that important. Europeans tend to trust their government and its institutions more so they don't fear the government. The US is traditionally very skeptical of its government which is why guns are seen as an important protection and right. Also I don't think people with guns are like vigilantes who want to dole out justice however they feel like. The police and courts still control everything...guns just add a layer of protection for our country's government.

Edited 1/8/2016 04:01:08

Agreed. We need guns. The people are nothing without a peoples army.

Cata, in response to you asking of facts you can go look at the NRA ranking of homicides in America ( the list May no longer exist ) the official Israeli government website, And EU violence statistics as well as independent studies from any major school in America.btw I find it hilarious people are saying America had the highest homicide rates because of our gun laws. It's higher because we have an extremely high population, not because we don't have enough gun laws. Cata, what rights do you actually have in Austria compared to America or Even Jamaica?. Well, please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it basically illegal or at least extremely difficult to own a weapon in Austria?. So you don't have the freedom to bare arms. It's also illegal to pray in Austrian public schools iv heard and in Austria, Sueing someone is so expensive for the average citizen and you are not always given a lawyer if sued. Many if these Facts are out of date but still my point is just because you can vote in an election and you are an official republic doesn't mean you are truly free. Cata if a crazy dictator took over tomorrow and started rolling tanks into your town and began storming your apartment building or home....look around where your sitting and tell what you could use to defend yourself against armed rebels?. My guess is probably nothing that will keep you alive for then 5 seconds at best. It's all and well that your government is giving you the right to vote but there's nothing stopping them but international relations from doing whatever they want. Checks and balances are useless if the people don't have a trump card to keep the men in power from doing there jobs. The best way to crack down on gun violence is to keep attention on illegal sails and keeping guns from Schools, and major gathering places. Also, we need to put guard's at Schools and major theaters

Do Europeans ever really wonder why America only suffered from 4 major rebellions in 200 years and Only fought one civil war? Compared to even younger European countries who triple that. It's partly because the people kept the government in check and doing there jobs. We never had a coup or a dictatorship because our system was fixed so we could successfully overthrow a tyrant if needed but in Europe back in the day, if there was a coup or a dictator took over you were,basically fucked unless there was already an underground movement going on. In America, the second that would have happened, people would have been rushing to there national guard posts and firming militias. What Europeans get wrong about America and guns is they are fed propaganda by liberal media saying we are a bunch of truck driving, shot gun shooting, idiots who can't spell there names and this is all magically because we have less gun laws and allow more freedom of religion. Obviously this isn't true and what Europeans don't understand is that Americans, compared to other nations with less gun laws, actually have very active national guards and militias so we keep up our learning on how to safely use guns and how to defend ourselves. Basically Americans have positive activities along with guns instead of us just sitting around getting drunk and pondering who we gonna shout next

And guns save so many lives it isn't funny, but of course we never talk about that

Basically in societies like France, Austria, Britain Ect. You don't have true freedom. What you have is the rule of the majority. In order to have true freedom, it must apply to everyone whether or not your in the majority doesn't matter. However in those countries, the majority rule and thus will occasionally deny freedoms to people in are in the minority who don't believe the same. In the UK, the majority of citizens are for gun control and making guns illegal. However the minority who want the right and freedom to own firearms are left out in the cold. Now it's true that if you live in a democracy then the majority wins but in issues like basic freedoms it doesn't matter what side your on, everybody should have them. That's why the U.S. constitution is so successful, it's because it outlines in great detail your freedoms that the majority can never take away.


" a true Republic is not where the majority rules; it's where the minority is represented " - CM Mills

^ ahahah this

Basically in societies like France, Austria, Britain Ect. You don't have true freedom. What you have is the rule of the majority.

The minority isnt represented in France, the UK and Austria, you kidding right?

In most democratic nations particularly in Europe and all over the world anyway, for example when presidential/general elections occur you have a vast choice of candidates, most of the time up to 20 candidates, it is not as much as in the US where you have only 2 strong party blocks and 2-3 ghost parties, that never had any chance anyway, this has been this way since the 19th century. At the end you have only 2 choices, I do not deny that politics are also bipolarized in Europe (most of the time liberals/conservative and social parties), but yet every political current is well represented, which is not really the case currently in the US. In France in the last 30 years, 4 different parties (of different political currents) won the general elections, and often you have even politicians from different parties cohabiting in one government, ex: currently the socialists are allied with the Green party, sometimes they were allied with the Far left parties, or sometimes with the Liberals, under President Mitterrand you even had the Socialist with the Conservatives all together in the Government, Mitterrand was a Socialist president and Chirac, the next person that also would become president was his PM at that time, do you experience anything similar in the US? Dont think so.

That's why the U.S. constitution is so successful, it's because it outlines in great detail your freedoms that the majority can never take away.

So successful in what? So according to you if the majority is against something, and the constitution forbids to people to have a chance, because it "can never be taken away" I call it a lack of flexibilty and an excess of authoritarianism, nothing to be proud of. As an example, the French constitution greatly changed over time (actually there was 5 big stages, we are currently under the 5th constitution ratified in 1958 during the Algerian war).

Edited 1/8/2016 12:09:11

They should be legal the way they are here. Notice how we have far less shootings. Also funny gun clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRqOg1Dq5K4

Guns should be only available and reserved for the competent and trained forces and authority.
Again I strongly believe that in modern societies guns should not be popularized, the great majority of modern nations excepted the US banned this, and it is for a good reason: We are no longer in the middle age or even when the Code of Hammurabi was the only source of justice, grow up. A random citizen should not have the right to use it to defend himself, this is counterproductive, and the mass shootings or the various "accidents" caused by guns (ex 2 brothers finding Gun's dad and one shooting the other and tragically killing him by accident) prove it everytime.

I.E the American government, the same one that has killed a million Iraqis, thousands of Afghans and started several civil wars in other countries, all while sending US citizens to the grave. I'd rather the ability to conduct a prolonged guerrilla war against it not be hindered. And before you say that it's impossible, the US lost a easier war in Afghanistan.

Ah, yes. Here comes the overused "All modern nations except the U.S" argument.

As usual when Angry says "modern nations" he means Europe. Because we all know that Europe's way is the only civilized way.

It should also be noted that using the above argument is an appeal to popular opinion which is usually a big logical fallacy. Just because a lot of countries do a specific thing doesn't make it the best option.

That's why the U.S. constitution is so successful, it's because it outlines in great detail your freedoms that the majority can never take away.

in other words: fuck off majority, government does whatever it wants!

I'm confused about the statistic of "Criminals Killed" by police and gun-owning citizens. The graphic tries to make it seem like gun owning citizens are much better than police at killing criminals, but even after taking into account police training (they aren't supposed to kill unless absolutely necessary), police are 40 times better at killing criminals than gun owning citizens (calculated by criminal kills per person, with "better" meaning more kills)

" a random citizen should not have the right to defend himself with it "....dude are you hearing yourself? Or are you just reading the Stalinist doctrine out loud?. Well Koala you really haven't answered any of my charges. I acknowledged the fact people in most European countries Have the right to vote yet I named some basic freedoms in Austria that I have heard are illegal. Koala, have you even listened to a fucking thing I said? Put down the Malcolm X bio, put your thinking cap on and read carefully. I never said the minority isn't represented, I said the majority has the power in most European countries to take away the rights of the minority. That doesn't mean the minority isn't represented. Also, if Europe's gun laws are so great then why am I constantly seeing England, France, Spain, near the top of the list of the world's most gun related violence? My point is clear and I have history to back me up. If you outlaw something controversial and Popular, you only make the situation worse. Probation in the 20s, The drug wars, And many other modern examples all show that. But one thing is certain, comparing America to Europe is bullshit. Each of our systems wouldn't work in either country. Socialist medicine in America has most of the population furious which Is why Americans congress is controlled by republicans and I highly doubt Europeans would enjoy our version of football as much AD there's XD. So please, stop trying to get Americans to convert because honestly it won't work for this generation. I see the sense and logic with a lot of European countries laws and systems however some of them scare the living shit out of me

Edited 1/8/2016 17:27:05

Also, is anybody really against banning, or severely restricting the unlicensed sale of guns without a background check? IMO, the government should streamline the paperwork and reduce the cost of a Firearms Dealer license, then ban unlicensed sellers. Additionally, prospective gun buyers should be allowed to purchase/subscribe to a system that, for a small fee, has the FBI do a background check on them at the beginning of each month (or some greater time period. Then, they could be given a special ID number, which, when given to a dealer along with a valid form of identification, could be instantly referenced to the FBI's database of "pre-approved" buyers, taking the place of the frustrating multi-day background check.

Ranek, your criticism didn't even make sense, thus, I shall not answer it

The minority isnt represented in France, the UK and Austria, you kidding right?

DAMN RIGHT, WE'RE OPPRESSED!

Edited 1/8/2016 18:40:24