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Elements at War: 3/1/2011 02:59:47


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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missing connection

Assalni-Eicoa
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 09:54:39


Metaltubbie 
Level 61
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First of all: i like the map. It's kind of cute how the symetric is hidden and it has potential for cool games.
But i have some questions/points of criticism:

- There are also more missing connections:
Isumi - Tomisato
Bhuj - Dalhousie

- Why are the hexagons so huddled?

- Why are so many map-creators not reading the [Guidelines for making a great map](http://warlight.net/ViewHelp.aspx?s=MapDesignGuidelines)?
Under "Border overlap" you can read: *"the borders of territories in different bonuses should be adjacent"*
If you don't do this you sometimes have the problem that you can't see directly which bonus to a territory belongs.

- And finally i would like to see a new distribution with only four territories, each in one corner. This would give totally fair starts for 4players or 2vs2.

Thanks for listening.
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 13:09:37


crafty35a 
Level 3
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I totally agree with you, Metaltubbie. I think the issue is the hex maps are being created with a hex grid generator (maybe the one recently posted on the forums), which doesn't account for overlap. I know it would be quite a bit of work to do, but fixing the overlap would improve the playability of this map **immensely**. At a glance, I really, really like the map. But I haven't even tried it yet, because I'm not looking forward to the bonus confusion.
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 13:18:16


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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I am always clicking the bonus rectangles anyways to make sure i know exact locations of bonuses, so it barely affects me, but i must still agree..
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 16:53:02


Than 
Level 25
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Hey guys! I appreciate the feedback on my map. I made the map essentially by hand, by copy and pasting hexes until I filled the entire area, then removed the ones I wanted to get the landscape I liked.

I did notice the missing links, I'll try and fix these soon. I'm not sure how to edit it after I've launched it, but I'll try and figure it out.

As for the overlap, I did read the guide, and I wanted to include this. However, there are a couple of reasons I did not. The first being, that it's an accurate hex map. Anytime you have a tileable map of any sort, it becomes essentially impossible to follow this rule. Imagine having a puzzle, taking out a few pieces, and then try shifting things around. It just doesn't work. The moment you shift one part, the puzzle no longer fits together. If you have a good idea to get around this, I'd love to hear it. The second reason I didn't do this is I wasn't sure how to represent regions with multiple bonuses. If you have a standard shift width, what does two borders look like vs one? How do you know which border applies to which bonus?

I really do appreciate the feedback on the map! Glad to hear people other then me are playing on it.
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 17:03:27


Diabolicus 
Level 58
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You can edit your map by making a duplicate version of it (e.g. 1.1) in the map design dialog, then make the changes to it. Once you publish it the old version gets archived.

As for creating the overlap:
Say your hexgrid is 100 units wide, and you want tiles to overlap by 2 units, then select two neighboring tiles in Inkscape if you use that and Transform->Scale them individually by 102%.
Only problem I see then is having the tiles NOT overlap at the Bonus border, since scaling works in all directions equally ... maybe scale border pieces only by 101% and move them 1 unit away from the bonus border? I think it can be done.
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 17:18:15


Matma Rex 
Level 12
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Maybe just makes the hexes smaller? Wider borders, or a bit of empty space between them is not an issue in terms of playability, while overlap is.
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 19:00:31


Than 
Level 25
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Missing links are pending the map going public.

Scaling and repositioning doesn't work in a tiled map. Not sure how to explain without making some images, so maybe if my description isn't clear, I'll proceed to drafting up some stuff.

The basic problem comes when multiple pieces interlock. Scaling down all the tiles will work, the problem comes in when you reposition them to be adjacent to their fellow bonus members. Once you do that, the integrity of the "puzzle" is no more, and things will visually no longer connect. Adjacent hexes will no longer be adjacent, so you'd need to draw links manually from ever tile to every adjacent bonus tile. Additionally you'll get corners clipping with other tiles.

Probably the best way to do this is plan for it from the ground up and not use a tile based map, or if you do, make the bonus borders not interconnect at all. Meaning, straight borders are ok, puzzle pieces are not.

Hope this makes sense. If not, I'll draw something up in inkscape when I have some time.

I'm also still curious what the best way to handle multi-bonus borders is.
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 19:48:48


crafty35a 
Level 3
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Rowen, you're right that repositioning will not work, but there are other ways to do this. I don't have time to open Inkscape right now and figure out how to do it there, but here is how I would do it in AutoCAD:

1. Start with what you have now, hexagons with overlapping boundaries (green and red are two separate bonuses):
![](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c364/crafty35a/Warlight/Hex1.png)

2. Draw a polyline that traces the border between the bonuses:
![](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c364/crafty35a/Warlight/Hex2.png)

3. Offset the polyline in both directions:
![](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c364/crafty35a/Warlight/Hex3.png)

4. The white polylines represent the new extents of the bordering hexagons. Trim those hexes back to define the gap between bonuses:
![](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c364/crafty35a/Warlight/Hex4.png)

5. Finished product:
![](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c364/crafty35a/Warlight/Hex5.png)
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 20:33:39


Matma Rex 
Level 12
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Here's what I would do in Inkscape, the cheap, easy way:

1. I have an ugly overlapping grid (sorry, couldn't be arsed to align them correctly)
![](http://i.imgur.com/0NBQm.png)

2. I do Path -> Inset on all hexagons.
![](http://i.imgur.com/LqQLB.png)

3. I repeat a few times until i get the desired effect.
![](http://i.imgur.com/VePPa.png)


The amount by which it insets the path can be changed somewhere in Options.



This is the simplest way that keeps hexagons hexagonal and make borders not overlap. This can also be used with any other map.
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 20:34:36


Matma Rex 
Level 12
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(Aw, sorry, these images shouldn't be that big :( But I can't edit the post now.)
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 20:45:03


crafty35a 
Level 3
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That certainly works, and is preferable to having them all overlap. But then territories in the same bonus do not have overlapping borders, and I tend to think that ends up looking sloppy. Personally (and this is just my opinion) I'd rather use my method and have slightly irregular hexagons along borders. My way is admittedly more work, though.
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 20:54:45


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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both valid solutions, the preferred one is based on personal preference... I thought the main problem we had was with overlapping bonuses however?
IE, the central island..
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 21:11:48


Than 
Level 25
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I'd argue that crafty35a's method doesn't work, and this is what I mentioned previously about requiring non-puzzle borders, and the need for straight borders. Just pulling things apart works fine, unless your pieces are interlocked.

Take this base grid:

![](http://imgur.com/CLaL1)


Just moving them doesn't work in cases like this:
![](http://imgur.com/1Wxog)

or worse this:
![](http://imgur.com/rip2w)


Scaling down and repositioning also doesn't work, as in the first bad case, you'll end up with overlap anyways, and in the second case, you can't reposition it and still maintain the border.
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 21:16:02


Than 
Level 25
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Elements at War: 3/1/2011 21:35:21


crafty35a 
Level 3
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Rowen, I think you are misunderstanding my method. I am not moving/re-positioning any hexes at all. The hexes along the border are just being trimmed back. Does this image make it any more clear?

![](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c364/crafty35a/Warlight/Hex6.png)

The vertices of the hexes that are along the border are just being pulled back to match the white dashed line.
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 21:38:06


Than 
Level 25
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Got it. I misunderstood. That would work I suppose. How do people handle multiple bonus borders?
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 21:44:47


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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Idk precisely how you'd do it, as I haven't been able to do much in Inkscape successfully, but perhaps purely a dotted line where the borders end, but another border crosses over?
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 22:31:43


crafty35a 
Level 3
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That's a tough call, Rowen. I don't think there's any perfect way to handle it. Most maps with overlapping bonuses, it's just larger bonuses that consist of multiple small bonuses. Off-hand, I can't think of another map with bonuses intertwined like your center island. I'd probably try to indicate the borders with some additional graphics on the SVG -- maybe lines or brackets that wrap around each bonus? And the bonus indicator box would be attached to these brackets.
Elements at War: 3/1/2011 22:44:45


Than 
Level 25
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Not a bad idea, thanks. Is that where people are most confused with the map? The center? There are also bonuses made up of smaller bonuses(each element island). Are those confusing?
Elements at War: 3/23/2011 20:27:38


NecessaryEagle 
Level 56
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missing connection:
Kamagaya and kimitsu in the water continent's SW corner
Elements at War: 3/23/2011 20:28:48


NecessaryEagle 
Level 56
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ah yes, never mind, I have just realized that it has already been fixed and the game I am in was just created before this change
Elements at War: 3/25/2011 08:16:51


Diabolicus 
Level 58
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Kamagaya Futtsu missing connection. (SW corner)
Elements at War: 4/24/2011 06:55:10


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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this map is gone.. this sucks :(
Elements at War: 4/24/2011 07:15:34

Fizzer 
Level 58

Warzone Creator
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It's not gone.
Elements at War: 4/24/2011 09:59:18


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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I can't make new maps with it cause it says it's retired..?
Elements at War: 4/24/2011 10:01:00


Perrin3088 
Level 44
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Okay.. Now I find it.. must be a problem with the template, I hadn't seen it when i went to create a new one manually..

perhaps these last few posts belong in bugs? seems like templates should search for newer versions of the maps if possible..
Elements at War: 4/24/2011 17:50:02

Fizzer 
Level 58

Warzone Creator
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When a map is changed, existing templates using that map need to be updated to reflect the new map version. It could be possible for WarLight to do this for you in some cases, but there are some cases where it couldn't possibly fix it for you and you need to update it manually.

For example, if a template is using a distribution mode that is removed, the template couldn't possibly know which distribution mode to use without asking you. Also, custom scenarios can't really be fixed any time a territory is added to the map, since it wouldn't know what to fill in the new territory.

These are just the tip of the iceberg. There's a whole slew of issues that arise if WarLight tried to migrate templates. Everything is referenced by an ID: territory IDs, bonus IDs, distribution IDs, etc. If the map designer swaps two territory IDs, this would wreck havoc on any templates that use custom scenarios since now the values in the territories are flipped. This would produce some really unexpected results.

WarLight basically takes the "safe" approach - if you try to use a template where the map has changed, it alerts you to this so you can fix your template manually. This prevents you from getting unexpected settings. The wording probably isn't ideal - I'll revisit this message.

It would be nice if it could migrate more settings where it can, since most map changes are minor. I'll think about this some more, but I'm pretty sure it would be a lot of work.
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