Actually, I think its more of the larger rising clans, or recovering clans, such as Outlaws and GG, that end up doing more poaching then say, an established clan, such as Masters. As far as I know, Masters is correct in that they have not poached any players excepting pardon99. It also seems that their group has a general impetous not to poach. This goes for lynx and turtles as well. I can't recall the last player either clan has poached, if they ever, unless you can say promotion from 101st could be "poaching" (which I feel it is not, it is part of the arrangement of the clans).

I cannot tell you how many instances I recall of platinum trying to recruit players from other clans. Until I managed to make him stop, I remember him trying to recruit from FCC in its early days. Platinum has also recruited from T4R, and attempted to recruit from HK and EIC. With GG, I know that they have also attempted to recruit from FCC (I suspect DWF too). The last poach I remember, however, ONE! doing, is Pardon99 from FCC, and the last poach that I remember Masters doing is Pardon99 from ONE!. In reality, I think the perceptions are skewed towards the big clans we accuse of poaching, when in reality, its the secondary clans trying everything they can to match with the top that are actually the ones executing the poaching. We just end up blaming them, because its human nature to blame the top of the food chain. (Because it maximizes our chances of power gain in our own right.)

Truth to be told, its likely that more poaching happens lower than it does higher. And this makes me think the key to retention is indeed making your own clan an enjoyable and competative place to be. If it isn't that player is ripe to be stripped away by some other hungry second-tier clan looking for new blood.

Well, you have some yummy members, gota say. Looking at WG, I mainly see some old corpses hanging around, but looking at FCC, I certainly wana take a bite!

Like Beren said, even if someone is "poached", why is that an issue?

If a clan has a certain makeup...let's say they are a good sized clan with a bunch of people that get along nice, but most of them are not very good...that clan has a choice (when some players become good). You either re-mold yourself more like the good players. Or, you try to recruit more good players (or work hard to develop the ones you have). Or, do nothing and run the risk of the good players leaving.

I am not saying any one of those is right or wrong. To each their own. All I am saying is that you cannot expect people's standards to not change as they grow.

In the past, when I had a lot more time, I spent a good deal of time training and helping out 'non-elite' clans get better. I have done numerous training tournaments with other clans. Other people have too. I love to see clans have internal growth, but the clan has to buy into that mantra for it to work.

So wassup guys, I haven't played CL9 and not even a lot of warlight until a week ago because of a very busy college year. But I've read this hole poach talking, and I think I can talk a bit about it, especially since Aura just cited Outlaws and Platinum directly.

A year and half ago I actually was in VIW, stayed a long time in the clan, and before that, I was in BRFUDEW. On both these clans, I never really felt integrated in a group or participated in clan activities. I tried once or twice talking to people, but at the end because of inactivity, or maybe just lack of interest of others, I never really did anything on those clans.

If I recall correctly, I first encountered that irish potato we call plat, in a RT ladder game. He did ask me how VIW was, at the time I didn't really like or dislike the clan, I was really just neutral towards it. At the end he hinted I could join his clan, and so I did.

At the time, VIW was better ranked and had better players than platinum's 101st, which was really a weird clan. At the same time we were independent from Lynx, but kind of B clan of it, anyways, it was weird. Lynxes were supposed to help us and stuff, but at the time it didn't really work, and I only knew Zero and AG there.

We formed a compact workable group in 101st. Lots of good, active and most important, eager to improve players formed the bulk of the clan. We were just a bunch of good friends having a good time. I didn't ever regret leaving VIW for 101st. Plat did as a matter of fact approach other clan players, but he tried to find players that were just like me, wanting to improve, and to join a clan were they could fully integrate.

Then a bit of drama, then a lot of drama, then even more drama after that, made 101st crack: the core players weren't satisfied with the status of the clan regarding Lynx, in a system that didn't work for us at the time (you can probably find all the drama somewhere in the forums for y'all drama likers). So we left and created Outlaws.

We were arround 20 "platinum loyalists", the players that he recruited, which were also the CL lineup and the very engaged players of the clan. The hole processus was a mess, almost all the players were poached by the so-called "elite clans" at the time. You know how many players we did lose? Two. Out of 20, only 2 wanted to join the elite clans, and that considering that our own clan was in total chaos.

Now, even though I left for a couple of months, I come back to the clan for at least sometime, and I find old faces, new faces, but the spirit of the clan is the same. Players that I really consider friends, with which I'm glad to talk and play with.

So at the end of the day, it is about the players. Fuck the clans! If there was a stupid rule preventing players from changing clans for the CL, I would never have joined my clan, and find players I want to play with. Poaching will always happen, doesn't matter what.

A player is a person, and warlight is a game. People just want to improve their experience. If you want to prevent players from leaving your clan, instead of blaming others, offer them an environnement they want. And if you do that, I guarantee that no Beren, MoD, Chris or Platinum will be able to make them leave.

By the way, those two players went to Masters, so great point there, lol.

If anyone from FCC wants to join Outlaws, we'll trade Platinum for any number of your members.

^+1

Here you go: https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=3474183140

Merry Christmas.

Not sure its worth losing this account for plat though. Has a nice map attached to it.

Edited 6/9/2017 20:12:39

2 Recommendations:

Problems: Games being decided by non-joins, Substitutions require manual work to be done by the league organizers, Lack of a clear schedule, Clan league takes too long, and specifically is much slower in some divisions than others, Clan league is stalled by players taking vacations in excess of 40 days

Solution:
Start all games at the same time, move the boot timer to 10 days, remove vacation from games

If someone doesn't join, allow a no penalty substitution at the beginning before the games begin, then once all the games begin, no substitution



–-----------

For the qualifiers:

Throw every clan into a double elimination tournament and only score the top three of each template. You get less games, less time, no one gets cheated out of seeding, and its pretty accurate for determining the top two clans. Everyone knows the schedule, because they all start at the same time. Also no special programming needed. Literally just make the tournaments and add three numbers from each tournament at conclusion. You can add up all the numbers in a just a few minutes.

Yea, you're offering us way too much, we'd make a deal for less...

For Clan League 10, when does the application period begin?

It'll be at least two months before CL10 sign ups yet mate. Keep an eye on the forums for threads about it but CL isn't fast so there a fair bit of waiting yet.

Of course I don't like it when someone leaves my clan go to another one, but how can I seriously complain about them doing what they think will make playing a game more fun for them?

If CL panel set up a rule that a player can not play in next CL if they just left a clan that is still playing CL, i'm not so sure the move will bring so "more fun" to them. A trick to limit this curse would be found. Only CL panel via such a rule in this main event can put some kind of stop to this.

Now ofc CL is not about that originally. It's just, does WL community think top clans poaching the best players from lower clan a good thing ? It seems mostly "elitist" clan members have spoken here, and are all ok with this ; maybe because they don't exclude to ever proceed so too, but that's pure speculation. Well maybe let's hear from lower clan members via a poll or something.
If they don't, then can't CL help solve this issue, on top of offering a major passionating event ?

Regarding analogies to soccer, this is quite easy to understand, unless you don't follow soccer, and also in other sports : take KD joining the Warriors for example, they have just built a 10 years legacy. They didn't break any rule, but really great for suspense in the NBA... Is this what we want for CL ? NBA commissionner is already working on something to prevent this in the future, as he has always been after fair competition, for the sake of NBA fans.

You guys say clans leading CL for ages happenned before and those clans collapsed since. Well how long were those clans live, and compare that to Masters for me as I was not there. Is it comparable, or like I think, Masters have been there for long and will stay there for long ? Which is all I hope for them. But above that, I hope CL is not a league where all clans compete for 2nd place.

Players are not commodities that can be stolen.

This is just a way to speak. We're not talking about police or jail either here. This comment is a bit like Njord who doesn't (want to) understand the analogy with soccer, because Tbest used the word "rich" instead of maybe "popular".

If they are truly happy in their current clan, there is nothing a poaching clan can do about it. Who initiates a discussion is immaterial. The player has the final say. They will only leave the clan if they think that is best thing for them. What say should the members of the old clan have over what is best for someone else? If there was something more serious at stake here, then maybe rules could be instituted - by Fizzer - but I said it before. This is a game. We play it for fun.

Ok so some people spent money to buy a clan. They've put time and effort to set up a culture that will attrat players. They will compete with other clans to seduce the good players, or will train the lower skilled players. Then the clan gets a reputation, so it can attract stronger players, and compete in CL which is the main event to value your clan and efforts done so far compare to other clans. That, basically, takes years -except of course clans that succeed a hostile take over on a Div A spot for weird reasons but thats another subject already covered.
Now all these efforts, during years, vanished, when those clans see their best players approached and recruited by more popular clans. And the clan may then be disintegrated.
Indeed, WL rules don't prevent that, and please we all know Fizzer will never add a rule here. Nothing can prevent this...
...except CL panel, by adding an incentive to all players staying in their clan. The most motivated to leave for another clan still can, and still can play CL, only they would have to be benched for a whole season, in order to be recorded in the roster, so they can be lined up the season after (in my suggestion).
Again, comes back the question, is this something we would like, or we'd rather keep on watching strong clans get stronger, vs middle clans get weaker, and CL being led by Masters, followed by a few clans fighting for places 2-4, and then the rest of the mass ?

Masters is correct in that they have not poached any players excepting pardon99

How do you know for sure ? Padon may be the only Masters member to have been poached, but how many have been poached and declined the offer, to your knowledge ? Yes, there has been more examples than Pardon and loyalty does still exist in some clans. But still, without talking about Masters in particular as this is a general subject, something can (should) be done to improve things IMO.

Edited 6/10/2017 01:07:30

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen.

I am personally surprised a topic such as player poachings has evolved on a specifically titled "Clan League 10 Improvements". What is being said regarding this topic is unfortunately not going to help us achieve this goal of improving clan league. I agree with Beren when he says "This whole discussion seems a bit silly to me, and quite frankly is getting very off topic. " . However with my name being called into question and noticing a Outlaws clan history I'm under no choice but to respond. Most of what I say in the following long paragraph can not be evidently backed with concrete proof except experience and the success I had with keeping my players while recruiting more players.

What I will be speaking in this message will rely on experience , my brain and my heart. Unfortunately for the side of anti-poaching the environment of the game we all play in. Is a strategical world where "class" or "reputation" is determined by your place on the ladders. The typical competitive player who competes on ladders want to be the best on the ladder with determination and will do whatever they can to become better. Point being, competitive strategic players will want to be the top around the top players. Of course some people don't believe this and hence the term "Elitism" is created. I'm talking about the players who want to strategically advance continuously. These players stand out as a diamond among rocks to these "Elite clans". The "Elite clan" believes the player shows great promise to be something great but also believe they face a harder to route to achieve this potential by remaining with this lesser skilled clan not being able to give the support channels a "Elite clan" could give. This psychological logic is used to make players feel they need these "Elite clans" to be better and the players knows logically this is true due to the attractive support networks the "Elite clans" have over the rest. The players mind will logically want to go for the baiting Elite clan option. However there is something greater then the mind and that's the heart. This is where the clan with the lesser skilled players can and simply must prevail in. Having a community that's close-knitted to give a almost family-feeling to the clan. The heart decides where a player wants to be. The heart is essentially the King of the chess board. Lose this and you lose the player. So to those smaller lesser skilled clans, You will be getting earthquakes or poaching attempts from "Elite clans" to your players rather you decide to like it/dislike it can be your call like paying taxes will be forever occuring being a pain. However your challenge in terms of keeping your players is to reinforce and defend your players heart from the hands of the "Elite clans". Give them the sense of belonging of value and importance. Do whatever you believe is right because what you do in this area of the game is much more effective then blaming the source of the "Poaching attempts".

If you read Aura Guardians post a few lines ahead the obvious thought that enters most people's heads is "Platinum what a poacher". The logical thinker would say "Platinum how did you recruit better players then I (me) could handle"? I think TeamGuns proves that I was just good at recruiting players and convincing players that we were the best thing. A quick comparison to a book I'm currently reading about the owner of Nike (Phil Knight) summarised his attitudes towards buisness as "Grow or die" . I had this mental mindset of always looking for players and if I ever didn't try to recruit players the clan would die. Look at where the attitude has brought me and between Bens 2015 list where 101st was outside the actual clan ranking made by him and today now where Outlaws not known as 101st is ranked 5th on Edge clan rankings with nobody making a major objection. I'm proud of myself that I build something from nothing. I'm prouder that I could recruit players that were probably better then what the clan was at the time. I'm proudest man keeping almost all my players away from poachers. ourselves. Masters , Turtles and Lynx were just some of the clans that wanted a piece of us and my members wouldn't move. We had the same problem smaller clans had .. We were also on a food chain as to speak. Though I managed the fine art of retention and recruiting players and essentially our clan is where it is today thanks to these new found skills. Instead of venting my frustration at the poaching of my players. I put my energy into integrating players more and making them feel part of something bigger then the ladders. A community.

Every clan faces the same problem at some point in their clan life. What matters is not our anger/resentment towards it but how we can learn and implement whatever was needed to achieve the results we needed. Earthquakes are as part of nature as poaching.

Thank you for reading and I will hope you agree with the majority of my points.

Edited 6/10/2017 01:34:53

How do you know for sure ? Padon may be the only Masters member to have been poached, but how many have been poached and declined the offer, to your knowledge ?

Declining a poach is not a poach.

I can be reasonably sure that masters doesen't poach often because that's the way masters is built. Most players I have seen have left the clan they were in and independently wished to join up with masters. For the most part, masters doesen't do any recruiting, they simply gain players because players want to join their forces.

Ah yeah I meant approched* sorry

I agree with you about Masters, this is also the impression I have from them generally, and we all know they don't really need to approach players. But it's difficult and a bit frustrating to see their recent recruits despite their already unreachable level, and scary to think that a former MH, Farah, crossed the line (how could we blame him, but that's not the point, and even if he was not poached) and that others have been approached.
And again this is not about Masters anyway, this is a suggestion of an additional rule in CL to improve community general happiness (1 player may be sad to chose between a clan and a season of CL, but all his clan mates would be sad otherwise) and also equity in the competition (so as the "2 templates per player" suggestion ; which, btw, could be tweaked, for example by "only 1 player can play in 3 template").

About Plat's last post, I read it, probably 3 times each line to understand them. It's basically something about earthquakes and heart. Not much sense, you can skip it, lol. Plus not even names mentionned so nothing really spicy :p

Edited 6/10/2017 01:35:50

When you're trying to play a game and get a surprise lesson about earthquakes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FjWe31S_0g

@Mike, I was really waiting for the Farah post to get into the discussion, thanks! Let me give you the short summary and you tell me about the poaching/approaching part. AI rigged the 1v1 ladder by playing with 2 accounts (Niklas Reissmann) and he played/surrendered against himself too (there were some stalling too); then M'H refused to do something about him. So Farah left M'H and got into tryouts with Master clan.

To help get this thread back on topic, lets use this thread for future poaching related discussion. I believe we do have a quite of bit yet to discuss here, so its a good idea to get this off this thread.

https://www.warlight.net/Forum/265556-warlight-poaching-discussion

Edited 6/10/2017 02:22:05

Re the subject of vacations, I agree that a set vacation limit should be established. Of course, RL always comes first, but I don't buy into any excuse that tries to justify 40+ day chained vacations. 99% of the time it's just players who don't want to play WL and probably shouldn't have volunteered to be in CL in the first place.

How do the templates get decided? Is is still the division A clans which vote on them?